My final Kite Safety sign submission...

[bryanleighty]

Originally Posted by amber

So for everyone that isn't a green rider yet (dumbasses like me who still can't go upwind) this pretty much means that everytime i'm at the beach someone will probably come discuss this? I guess most of you know me by now, but is that what this will do? Students will need to wait until their instructor beleives they have crossed the line over to intermediate rider? just trying to get it figured out in my head.

i would say you would only be questioned if you were at the Skyway launches...
at places like EB we need to re-work the sign ... maybe designate a new rider area or something like that.

My personal opinion is that E.B. is an intermediate spot. It's where most of our serious accidents have occured... I know of 3 right off the top of my head, two of which required EMS.

A Beginner spot would be somewhere like Big Beach (there are no trees,rocks,cars, or slippery muck there). But, I'm not going to push it. Just a personal opinion. I think the Intermediate line should stay but as a recommendation instead of a rule. Beginners should be accepted but they should understand it's at their own risk.

Okay. Let's clear this up fast, cuz I hope to talk to Mr. Wilson soon.

We only have 2 east spots, we already decided to limit the SW, that leaves EB as a beginner spot, right? I need input on this before Scott and myself go in to talk. I am a little gun shy about some saying I didn't tell Mr. Wilson what we wanted. I was basically going to say we want to promote safety and post a list of agreed upon safety regs that we have ZERO intention of him having to enforce. Is this correct?

The "enforcement" issue is key here. I talked with some people who are smarter than me last night and they made a very good argument to me. They said we need to figure out whether this sign represents recommendations or rules we plan to actually enforce (even if rarely). In theory, we can't truly enforce anything unless the park stands behind it and backs up our decision.

Phrased differently, are we ever planning on asking a park ranger to enforce one of our "rules" on the sign? This needs to be determined before I talk to him, because it will probably be his first question. My impression of Mr. Wilson is that he REALLY wants to be hands off and have us regulate ourselves.

If we plan on limiting access to EB using wording on the sign, this is going to lead to (possibly) a person talking with Mr. Wilson about his rights to do what he wants at a public park. Get where I am going?

The sign is awesome and I am pumped up about it
But, we need to decide whether it is recommendations that we recommend that kiters follow, or if we view them as rules we plan to enforce. If the latter, it ultimately puts the burden on Mr. Wilson to enforce a rule.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but someone much smarter than me convinced me of this last night and she is right. I am not on a true deadline, but the faster we figure this out, the better. Most are at work, tomorrow is Sat and Monday is a Holiday.
I would like to talk with Mr. Wilson on Tuesday with Scott and get this done.

Does anyone see my point here about enforcement? I was hoping we could use persuasive talk and "peer pressure" in our efforts to self regulate. But, if someone takes it a step further and tells someone they can't ride 'cuz the sign says so and the sign is on park property and the park manager is like "what?".... you get it already.

[Danimal8199]

Scott,

We are not the law, so how can we "enforce" rules? This sign to me represents recommendations/proper etiquette.

To get the park behind you I would imagine there would be alot of red tape involved. As a person (not you or anyone on here personally), one cannot declare yourself the top authority on kiteboarding and hand a ranger rules and expect him to just say "yes i'll enforce them" and accept them completely.

I would think that if you are adding park rules it would have to go infront of the pinellas county parks and recreation committee, go through their legal council, get votes and all that comes with anything in the legal and regulatory environment.

Obviously we are pushing the safety aspect here but I would def. approach it from a recommendation standpoint.

I think the best way to keep it safe and keep our freedom is to keep the park hands-off as possible.

This is though, a step in the right direction showing the rangers that we are serious about responsibility, accountability, and safety. Oh, and that we are not all a bunch of yahoos.

Danny

[bryanleighty]

i think we would all agree that a sign at EB would be different than at the Skyway.

I would say a sign at EB would need to be focused heavily on "guidelines" and less strict sounding.

take some of the "MUST" and "do not" verbage and change it to "recommend".

I would approach the rangers w/ the idea of putting up a "Safety Guidelines" sign.

[bryanleighty]

and..



this is my 1000th post.




i need to shut up.

I agree, the signs should be a lot of "Please", "recommend", and "encouraged". It's a sign to encourage safe riding practice thats all. MOST people will assume they are rules... and there is nothing wrong with us asking someone to leave. We can ask them to eat dirt too if we want to ... whether or not they do it is up to them... but they may not realize that

Maybe we could remove the Advanced/Intermediate line for East Beach and change it to "Help protect our riding spots" or something like that.

What do you guys think?

[amber]

might be a redundant question, but green means intermediate and red means advanced? (broken down of course)

Scott...i completely agree that we shouldn't persuade the rangers at Desoto to want to "enforce" anything. Our recommendations are simply that and will hopefully alleviate some of the confusion on the beach and maybe even prevent a potential accident. These are not 10 commandments in which somone will be struck by lightning if disobeyed. Peer pressure seems to work well in life and i think it will with this too. Simple is best, so lets start at the bottom with basic "guidelines" and go from there. They are not chiseled in stone and we'll just have to see how it works for US. We should make the park aware of what we are trying to do (promote safety) and that's about it. (IMO of course!)

Originally Posted by Danimal8199

Scott,

We are not the law, so how can we "enforce" rules? This sign to me represents recommendations/proper etiquette.

Danny

I know. It seems so obvious That's how I see it too.
The way the sign is currently worded however, leaves room for less lenient interpretation. I just wanted to make sure the majority of you felt the same way, because the way I am going to phrase the sign to Mr. Wilson is that we envision it as a set of agreed upon guidelines or recommendations to promote safe kiting. I am just covering my butt before I present our idea. I want to represent the consensus. At the same time, I personally feel if that is our approach, the sign should more clearly represent our intent through it's phrasing.

Must, for instance, can't be used verbiage. It implies a possible fine or consequence from the park if disregarded.

Most signs (think about this) especially in a park, tell you what you can't do and have the backed up authority of the "head cheese", with a possible fine usually. I was probably pointing out the obvious. But maybe not.
Since so many hopped on and agreed with the obvious, can we then agree to change the wording to use more terms like - recommended and encouraged? This helps to strip a lot of responsibility off of Mr. Wilson and puts it back on us to use peer pressure and conversation as persuasion for riding safely.
The sign (although not a legally binding and enforceable list of rules), is a testament to what our local community agree are some safe kiting practices, and as stated, shows we aren't a bunch of yahoos. I think it'd be great to get it out there.

[bryanleighty]

Originally Posted by popeye

"Help protect our riding spots" or something like that.

What do you guys think?

I think that might imply that there is some reason why we might lose our riding spot.. probably not something we want others to question..

EB sign would be as much geared towards the beach goers and spectators as it would the kiters. I'll be that non-kiters would read it more often than kiters.

Skyway sign should be a bit more strict in the sense that its agreed by local kiters and instructors that its a hazardous place to ride.