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  #21  
Old 09-10-2007, 09:08 AM
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toby wilson toby wilson is offline
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Wolfie, Kite-4-Life...I'm with you. I love how people get on here and preach about whatever it is they feel is the bitch of the week. Then the next week they contradict themselves. You would think that the recent events at the Skyway would have made everyone more eager to get at least some informational signs up for everyone to go by. What I am trying to get across is if you don't mean it, don't post it.

Lets stick to our original objective(s) and get something constructive done in the way of making our launches as safe as possible for the public and our community of kiters...in a POSITIVE way.
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  #22  
Old 09-10-2007, 09:20 AM
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Its taken only 1 week of semi-ridable wind for the smack talk BS crap to creep back on the forum. ugh.

From the beginning my initial concern was beginners at the Skyway launches.

The sign/rules/guidelines got thrown into the mix and while I think its still a great thing for us to have it was not my orignial concern.

Regarding some sort of ID, color tag, harness clip, etc.. I still would be willing to put effort into getting this done but only if its something that the local instructors are going to be 100% behind. Its their call. If even one of them is against it, then another system needs to be in place.

My vote is for whatever system our main local instructors come up with to keep the beaches as safe as possible. I will volunteer some hours to help out and thats all i can do. I think the topic has been talked through more than enough. It really has to fall back on the instructors to come together and get something in place. They are the only ones that have the ears of nearly every single new rider in our area. They have to be the ones to push whatever system they decide on.

I would say to start as simple as possible to see if it catches on.
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  #23  
Old 09-10-2007, 10:23 AM
popeye
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Well, we spent a lot of time on this sign idea ... what 6 or 8 of us? We hashed out the sign, got approval from the rangers, got funded by both Rick and kite4life, even after some of the early participants disappeared from the thread entirely.

Now all we have to do is make the sign so the other 100 intermediate-advanced riders can safely ignore it...

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  #24  
Old 09-10-2007, 11:05 AM
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inferno inferno is offline
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i think a lot of our ideas are good ones, but will not be super easy to get implemented and will take some time.... in light of this i was trying to come up with a simple quick solution.....
my thoughts.....
to main riding areas of concern
-SW (N, NE, or E) and EB (E,SE, or S)
some of the main concerns
-to much congestion while trying to lauch and land
-riding/performing tricks to close to shore
.....
a simple and quick remedy
collect a small amount of donations and purchase a dozen or so of the orange bouys with some sort of an anchor, hand them out to whomever is at the riding spots the most and ask them to just throw them out a 150ft or so when they arrive on a windy day (a day that lots of people will be riding)

then every one will see them and its pretty clear that its a no ride/trick zone, and most people arent going to get mad at you for saying, "excuse me, if you dont mind can you try your best to stay outside of the safety zone, thanx"

atleast you wont have people who respond, i didnt see a sign or people who forget to bring there tag, or those who go out and buy there own tag....

not to mention, i know i jump to close to shore a lot , but im not always fully aware that im doing it, im just having fun... the bright orange buoys would be a good reminder for people like me

my, hopefully helpful, two cents
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  #25  
Old 09-10-2007, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormatzio View Post
So this is about my second post ever...
I have nothing to say about this topic so I will just say that stormatzios profile actually says he has posted 4 times. Now his credibility is in question!
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  #26  
Old 09-10-2007, 11:16 AM
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ye of little faith.

hehe..


I was going to post more about this but I am done with this conversation.

I volunteer to help any instructor or whomever to get the tags and/or signs going. I just dont want to be caught up in defending why I think its a good idea or at least a positive start.

I will always be someone that will help others that look like they need help.. we should all be committed to doing that. New riders just want to share in the same thrill that we are all addicted to.. we all did some dumb ass stuff in our learning phases too..
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  #27  
Old 09-10-2007, 01:02 PM
Skyway Scott
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Steve, I did originally have a more severe post, I deleted it. Why? I don't like making negative posts in general, especially if I feel they are in total vain. Some people love to slant a negative post into a desire to watch Days of Our Lives and then make accusations safely from behind their keyboard. I felt the original post was spot on, but also made in vain.

Keeping it positive is becoming more difficult for me the last few days.
It seemed we were going somewhere with a couple safety meetings and the sign idea. This is a very off the wall example, but did you know if a man is cheated on, he is 70% likely to forgive if he just hears about it, and only 5% likely if he actually sees it with his own eyes? So, if you are reading this and thinking "dude chill.. or stay positive dude" or similar, I think I can relate. But try saying it after you realize how many kites have gone in the road in the last 3 weeks compounded with seeing Circus McGircus live on two occasions.

I hear a rush to get the sign at the SW. Well, we laid out a series of stuff, got clearance at EB... now what? Did someone run with it? That'd be great if so.
A sign can't hurt, I imagine.
But, is the sign a magic sign? In other words, does it possess Jeidi powers that we as a group lack when we talk to people and try to stop them from doing stuff like jumping/riding very close to shore?
This rush to get the sign and tags mentality, when the problem is here now is like rushing to put up "don't smoke at the gas pump" signs when the station is on fire. Once the sign is up, if most people "continue to smoke" sticking with the analogy, then what? Point to it, forcefully! (?)
Most of the monkey business I have seen recently isn't from newbies, it's from veterans who already know the hazards of their riding behaviors. I am not against a sign, but I think we are focusing on newbies, tags, cones, etc... all while turning a blind eye (I am too) to the more urgent safety issues at the SW.

Bob, Tom and I confronted (talked to nicely) some riders at PAG a while back. I don't want to belabor that scenario, my reason for raising it is that we did something. We took action.
With or without a sign, it's going to come down to the same thing for behaviors to change (if possible) at the SW.

The thing is, these are our long time friends out there that we have to confront. Not dragons we can kill with swords, not occasional out of town kooks we tell to leave or have their ass kicked or even the over- demonized beginner. Nope, it's some of our vet riders and a couple are even instructors. That makes it tricky.
Confrontation is always easier (at least for me) when I feel it is with - "them... the bad guy.. similar". This is with friends.
We all know that they know that we know.... and we know the outcome of the "hey man, can you please" conversation before we even have the conversation. No veteran rider out there is in the dark over our concerns or unaware that we wish they would stay clear of shore, etc.
Is there something we can do or say to them? I have already tried talking to most of them on numerous occasions over the years. I obviously am saying the wrong thing.
Maybe someone else is better at phrasing things.

That's why I didn't even try to initiate more conversations the last few days.

Steve made a good point about the SILENT majority. It is very disheartening to me to think about it. We have so many guys that want to be safe and do the right thing. But how many posts do we have on here about "Wow... how can I help?". How many people? Five, eight, maybe. And I know this, at least 50 read the forum and are members. It's not for lack of knowing about the forum, its a true lack of participation that we have a silent majority. More importantly, the number is even smaller "in real life" when at the SW.


Some of us have tried in various ways in the past, some for a long time, to contribute to safety and related agendas. In my mind, that is so much more than so many who have never tried at all. If I or someone else decides to delete a post or not get involved in something, keep that in mind, please. It doesn't do much good to kick someone in the shins that has stepped up in the past. It doesn't encourage others to help in the future. I actually strongly believe that this is the primary reason people don't speak out on this forum is ALL the heat they have seen others catch for showing concern or expressing ideas in the past. It's a lot easier just stay "out of the madness" and not get involved.

I hope things change for the positive in the future, because frankly, they have to if we don't want to lose the SW. Let's just not put too much faith in inanimate objects is one of my points. The other is that we are talking about our core as well as new riders, in my opinion, and the sooner we acknowledge that, the better. I still have zero idea how you change the core's attitude though, and that's why we need a new voice(S) in that department.

Last edited by Skyway Scott; 09-10-2007 at 01:36 PM.
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  #28  
Old 09-10-2007, 01:46 PM
popeye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyway Scott View Post
Steve, I did originally have a more severe post, I deleted it. Why? I don't like making negative posts in general, especially if I feel they are in total vain. Some people love to slant a negative post into a desire to watch Days of Our Lives and then make accusations safely from behind their keyboard. I felt the original post was spot on, but also made in vain.

Keeping it positive is becoming more difficult for me the last few days.
It seemed we were going somewhere with a couple safety meetings and the sign idea. This is a very off the wall example, but did you know if a man is cheated on, he is 70% likely to forgive if he just hears about it, and only 5% likely if he actually sees it with his own eyes? So, if you are reading this and thinking "dude chill.. or stay positive dude" or similar, I think I can relate. But try saying it after you realize how many kites have gone in the road in the last 3 weeks compounded with seeing Circus McGircus live on two occasions.

I hear a rush to get the sign at the SW. Well, we laid out a series of stuff, got clearance at EB... now what? Did someone run with it? That'd be great if so.
A sign can't hurt, I imagine.
But, is the sign a magic sign? In other words, does it possess Jeidi powers that we as a group lack when we talk to people and try to stop them from doing stuff like jumping/riding very close to shore?
This rush to get the sign and tags mentality, when the problem is here now is like rushing to put up "don't smoke at the gas pump" signs when the station is on fire. Once the sign is up, if most people "continue to smoke" sticking with the analogy, then what? Point to it, forcefully! (?)
Most of the monkey business I have seen recently isn't from newbies, it's from veterans who already know the hazards of their riding behaviors. I am not against a sign, but I think we are focusing on newbies, tags, cones, etc... all while turning a blind eye (I am too) to the more urgent safety issues at the SW.

Bob, Tom and I confronted (talked to nicely) some riders at PAG a while back. I don't want to belabor that scenario, my reason for raising it is that we did something. We took action.
With or without a sign, it's going to come down to the same thing for behaviors to change (if possible) at the SW.

The thing is, these are our long time friends out there that we have to confront. Not dragons we can kill with swords, not occasional out of town kooks we tell to leave or have their ass kicked or even the over- demonized beginner. Nope, it's some of our vet riders and a couple are even instructors. That makes it tricky.
Confrontation is always easier (at least for me) when I feel it is with - "them... the bad guy.. similar". This is with friends.
We all know that they know that we know.... and we know the outcome of the "hey man, can you please" conversation before we even have the conversation. No veteran rider out there is in the dark over our concerns or unaware that we wish they would stay clear of shore, etc.
Is there something we can do or say to them? I have already tried talking to most of them on numerous occasions over the years. I obviously am saying the wrong thing.
Maybe someone else is better at phrasing things.

That's why I didn't even try to initiate more conversations the last few days.

Steve made a good point about the SILENT majority. It is very disheartening to me to think about it. We have so many guys that want to be safe and do the right thing. But how many posts do we have on here about "Wow... how can I help?". How many people? Five, eight, maybe. And I know this, at least 50 read the forum and are members. It's not for lack of knowing about the forum, its a true lack of participation that we have a silent majority. More importantly, the number is even smaller "in real life" when at the SW.


Some of us have tried in various ways in the past, some for a long time, to contribute to safety and related agendas. In my mind, that is so much more than so many who have never tried at all. If I or someone else decides to delete a post or not get involved in something, keep that in mind, please. It doesn't do much good to kick someone in the shins that has stepped up in the past. It doesn't encourage others to help in the future. I actually strongly believe that this is the primary reason people don't speak out on this forum is ALL the heat they have seen others catch for showing concern or expressing ideas in the past. It's a lot easier just stay "out of the madness" and not get involved.

I hope things change for the positive in the future, because frankly, they have to if we don't want to lose the SW. Let's just not put too much faith in inanimate objects is one of my points. The other is that we are talking about our core as well as new riders, in my opinion, and the sooner we acknowledge that, the better. I still have zero idea how you change the core's attitude though, and that's why we need a new voice(S) in that department.
I'm gonna make you keep it
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  #29  
Old 09-10-2007, 03:15 PM
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Wolfie Wolfie is offline
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I think all we can do is keep a constant and gentle pressure in the direction of cleaning up some of the riding at SW. We should all try to discuss dangerous riding with anybody when we see it. If the person is unwilling to change their practices, so be it. The worst that can happen is the same as if we do nothing. I really don't think being reminded that something is dangerous and may get us banned should be taken confrontational. The truth being told, I don't think there is one of us out there that has not showboated near shore. It is instinctual....but with a slow, constant push anything is possible. I'm looking into sign prices today.
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  #30  
Old 09-10-2007, 04:20 PM
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Wolfie Wolfie is offline
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FYI-
Sign Prices for an outside 18"x24" (like the real estate open house signs). This maybe bigger than we need.

Just text- $40.95

With a map/graffics $66.00

With a Y-Frame to hold up add $17.50
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