In the future, if I see a kiter who I deem a threat to his own safety, I am going to politely approach this kiter and talk with him. I have done this since day one.
Before I approach him, I usually look for 2 other kiters that I believe have the same thought process as myself and ask them to help with the "safety speech" to persuade the rider not to ride, to take lessons, (whatever that scenario holds).
I know a few who I can depend on (including Raul, Tom, Steve S., Scott W., Toby and others) to tactfully help in this type of scenario. Steve S. noticed a total novice about a year ago at the backside, asked me to help him "give the speech" and we helped stop a problem before it happened in a very positive manner thanks to his observation and actions.

Anyone who believes in this approach of politely policing our spots, just tell Raul, me, Steve etc. next time out. We will eventually have a group of responsible riders that cooperate and in a tactful and civil manner assure continued access to our spots.

This isn't a gestapo statement, btw, pretty far from it. I don't foresee shutting down every newb out there or doing a full body search prior to riding. That's not what this is about. It's about shutting down the totally incompetent rider quickly and effectively before they end up embedded in the side of a truck with their kite headed toward the interstate.
It's easy enough to spot them most of the time. The thing is, often decisions have to be made very quickly after the rider's clueless-ness is determined. (b/c it is often not obvious until they go to launch improperly or crash the kite 4 times in a row right near shore immediately after launching) etc.

It'd be nice to know very quickly when responding to these scenarios who we can depend on to "jump in" and help quickly by just yelling their name and knowing they are going to follow your lead and help (kind of like who is on the volunteer fire fighters squad or something) as opposed to having them question your actions.
Helpers would be helping secure the person, the kite and then help with a polite but firm speech. This, imo, should never approach anything close to a fight or intimidation. At the same time though, I can tell you from personal experience that giving the "speech" alone while others sit and watch passively is moderately ineffective without raising your voice and acting aggressive for some, because some interpret the apathy of other kiters as indicating that the one guy giving the speech is some kind of safety whack job with extreme views that aren't agreed upon among the group.

Anyway, if you think you would be interested in helping out, just approach me next time out there and we will begin to get a group of friendly but persuasive helpers as an alternative to suicide by kite. I hope this scenario only happens 3 to 10 times all season. It'd be nice if we successfully responded to each one before a possibly bad outcome. In the past we have been a little lax, imo, about stopping a problem before it happens.

If you don't want to be involved, no worries, just don't volunteer.

That was well put Scott. I may not be the best rider on the water but after years of instructing students in other watersports and two years of being on the beach watching it all, and living it all (try to live with Steve S, Toby and Mira for a while and trust me....I can tell you more about kiting and all that accompanies it than a lot of people! :)

i feel confident in my ability to properly judge a dangerous potential outcome. I know I'm a girl and aren't quite as intimidating, but maybe it will become less confrontational if a girl in pigtails can explain some of the necessities of riding in this area and be able to refer them to qualified instructors if deemed necessary.

You guys (oops and girl, Amber) hit the nail on the head.

I agree there is usually no need to be aggressive with the person who is looking sketchy ... just offering to help, asking some questions, and telling them a few horror stories is enough to get their attention.

Done this a MANY times.. the last time I did it at lassing the rider quickly made his own wise decision not to launch a 16 in 25. I offered to meet up with him later when the wind came down and keep an eye on him (for help not judgement).

I’m all in for helping to make things safer in a positive way. I think an arm band to signify basic skills or above to ride skyway sounds good, but you know some will take the option to object, and you need to have some one as an administrator distributor.

I do feel bad I didn’t take the time to talk to the injured rider when I saw him struggling on the water in very light wind. He had a large Monkey kite and a mid size liquid force board with too much rocker. Frankly he was doing better than four other new riders right up near the beach and I thought he’d get tired before it picked up. I was getting off the water just as it started picking up because I had a time limit and I did talk to another lower skilled rider launching a 16 Cab and warned him it was going to pick up.

My point is that our informal safety and access group would have been busy yesterday. I would have liked to been part of, no exaggeration, seven conversations regarding skills and judgment in the two hours I was there. It doesn’t leave much time for kiting but if it helps us keep our access I’m willing to help.

Bob

Not a local
 

Everybody seems to like Randy, but if the Skyway is not a place for beginners to kite, lessons should not be taught there. It's only going to embolden them to kite there. Instructors should tell thier students not to kite there until they can consistently go upwind. Which usually takes a season so they will naturally be experienced in many aspects of kiting by then. They should tell them not to learn jumping there, because it's way too dangerous and they may get us banned. Usually a newbie is gonna be apprehensive and a couple of concerned words this may not be the time and place for their skill level will be heeded, especially if you redirect them to East Beach.

"Before I approach him, I usually look for 2 other kiters that I believe have the same thought process as myself and ask them to help with the "safety speech" to persuade the rider not to ride, to take lessons, (whatever that scenario holds)."

The herd mentality will go a long way to discourage most newbies

Yep. Problem is Randy won't receive nearly as much traffic stationing himself anywhere else other than the skyway, which means......less income. That's the reason these problems will continue to occur. Noobs make mistakes. It's part of the learning process. Let's not get it twisted...upon completion of lessons, one is still considered a noob. Randy encourages something that is unsafe, so the problem will persist.

Just want to say, I definitely think Randy is one of the nicest guys out there...

..but I agree that the skyway is not a great place for doing lessons.

HOWEVER... if forced to choose between a beach full of kids and parents, and the skyway full of just kiteboarders, I would choose the skyway.

Teaching at a crowded beach is one of the WORST place you could teach, period. Worse than that would be a parking lot.

I did explain to him the situation with Josh. It served as a warning to how powerful the kite is, and how accidents can happen. Not to mention Josh was NOT someone I was teaching, I THOUGHT at the time he knew what he was doing. So Technically that puts me in the same place as the person whom launched the guy at the skyway.

And did they really go in depth over the venturi effect, Coriolis effect, and actual aerodynamics of the kite? And do you really think explaining these things to students will help them, I honestly don't.

My father is a firefighter/ems and my mother was a nurse, do you really think I don't know a thing or two about first aid, CPR, and what to do in case of an emergency?

I've been riding here, sailing here, and living here long enough to know about the locations, where would be best to teach and how to go about doing it. I won't be bothering any of you with teaching my friend so there's no problems with it.

I'm not getting tons of people to pay me to teach, so that's not the issue anyways.

The fact is, just because you have that piece of paper, doesn't make you any better than an instructor that doesn't. Doesn't mean your any worse either.

Also, don't try to pull the ONLY CERTIFIED RIDERS card, because it's not even a TRUE certification. It's not recognized by any government entity so it doesn't even matter.

Niether is a scuba C card... but that doesn't mean it's worthless.

i disagree, the venturi effect is a serious matter and it scares me when i see people tempting it....

http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewt...8f81d37a2f6fbb

Kevin, I can't remember you offering positive or useful input to this forum for over 2 years. It's always some anti-authority speech when we are trying to reach agreements amongst ourselves. Can you just do us a favor and let us discuss this without interruption? If you don't want to follow the agreements we reach the one day a year you come out, that's fine.
Just let us discuss what we are going to do the other 364 days that we interact as a community without your presence. Thanks.

Kevin Wrote:


Cool, Does that mean that I can go ahead and fight fires and tend hospital patients right away? I prolly don't even need to take any more school exams since thats just a waste of paper. Jeez, how stupid could I have been to get a degree?

We can't have a debate without a few people disagreeing and that's just how it is. Accept it, tell them you disagree, or to zip it, but lets not make it personal with insults and name calling. That isn't helping anything or anyone and it makes it hard for everyone to take us seriously.

Besides, OptionRyder does have one good point (whether or not he said it this time). The rules are not enforceable. You can ask and you can refuse to launch or land someone's kite but that's about all you can do legally. Fortunately I think most people would rather accept the (agreed upon) rules than stand there all day getting the stink eye waiting for a launch.

Just so you know there have ALWAYS been kiteboarding rules. You should have learned them during your first lesson(s).

This is one thing that came to mind when I made that statement, my parents scuba dive, but I'm not into it and know nothing about it.


BigR, you missed my point. Firefighting is and nursing are monitored by the government, as is driving. You need certain licensing and qualifications to do both of these. Teaching kiting, is NOT. If you get caught nursing without a license you will be in trouble. You won't get a job as a firefighter without being an EMS or Paramedic first and then attending the firefighters academy. You can teach kitesurfing without a license and nobody will give it a second look (besides you guys).

Scott, I'm out a lot more often then once a year, although I'm only out for an hour and I stay WAY the hell away from everybody due to these conflicts. And as you say I'm always in here disrupting THESE types of topics... maybe there's a reason? You know, maybe I strongly disagree with what everyone is trying to do. I believe I'm still in America and have freedom of speech and Rick hasn't said anything to me or censored me (it's his forum he can do as he wishes) so I think I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as everyone else.

I never said any of that stuff doesn't pertain to kitesurfing, but I know there are probably TONS of kiters that have no idea of any of that stuff and they're proficient riders. Certain warnings to said conditions are definitely needed, but I don't believe there's any reason to go so in depth of such conditions that someone should have to take notes. Honestly Steve, can you go over all the formulas related to the Coriolis effect? I think not.

I hope you guys realize the only step that can be taken to regulate kiting is an all out ban. If you really want to help take a step towards that, be my guest, I can afford tickets to kite, it's no big deal to me.

Talking inexperienced kiters down I'll agree with. If I see anyone inexperienced trying to launch and Scott, Steve, or anybody I know tries to talk the person out of it, I'll have your back on the issue. Most likely I won't see it though, I get to the beach, pump up my kite, rig up, and I'm gone. When I get back, kite is down, packed up, and I'm gone in less then 10 minutes usually. (Maybe another reason you never see me Scott)

But like Tom said, past that, there's nothing that can be done. I won't help intimidate a rider out of going, or cut someone's lines, or anything that can bring legal action against me. If you think you're saving our kiting spot by intimidating someone or doing anything that could involve the police, you better believe that spot will be gone so fast there won't even be time to post about it here.

I mean, what do you guys plan to do if someone disagrees with you about kiting and decides to go anyways?

Nothing you can do, so either pack up and leave the beach, or wait around to call the paramedics.

I'm just not sure of what you guys are even trying to get done, especially since like I already said, there's nothing that can be done.

Well, I woke up and things really seem to be settling down and coming together.

Good job guys.

Sorry man.. but this is complete and total BS.

come to Hood River.. I am amazed at how the community of kiters and windsurfers have got their shit together and made "rules" on how to kite safely.

Now.. enforcing these rules is another thing. I dont see any kite-cops out here.. but its more a taught mindset that "this is how WE do things around here.. and if YOU want to be a part of it you need to take the responsibility"

its not a "i am better than you" thing.. its a "we are all better if we do things this way".

I still have seen newbies doing dumb things, I have heard of 1 major kitemare here (guy has been in hospital for 4 days now).. and have witness 2 major kite-related accidents and took 30 minutes myself to drag a fallen rider back to the shore .. in fact.. i saw a guy fly a second kite to shore.. not drag it or rescue.. the dude was flying his kite while holding the CL of another kite and flying it at low altitude.. amazing.

I know you have concerns about anyone jumping too close to shore.. I agree 100000%.. I have done it myself and do my best to keep my distance.. there are a couple riders here that not only jump.. but throw down handle passes and loops right on the crowded shoreline.. I agree this is another thing that needs to be addressed.. but first thing is def. the new riders and identifying them and making them feel comfortable to come up and talk to others that are willing to take the time to help them. if they could identify US as being someone there to help, I think it would be a great start.

signs on the beach, rules, etc.. those are things that will have to happen.. it works in many places..

I am stating the obvious but the skyway is a dangerous place to ride. I rode there for my first time last night, and it immediately struck me as an area where potentially nasty things can happen. There were only a few people out , but immediately off the beach was really congested, and trying to get upwind was hard while getting out of other people's way. a few times my kite was flying over cars and people and i really didn't like that. A little farther out was a lesson going on and the inherent unpredictability of falling kites and out of control riders.(And thats fine I understand thats Randy's livlihood). Not to mention deep water with rocky shorelines on both sides of a really short riding area,and a major highway within easy striking distance of an out of control kite.
I can only imagine the freakshow that goes on there on a windy weekend. too many people riding a small congested area. It is a lot more fun to be at a place where a bunch of other people are riding , but i think part of the problem is everyone wants to go there as it is convenient. Spreading out to EB or other places that work on an east wind(I assume tampa bay has lots of options) would help the situation, or designating the immediate off the beach water to be for launch and landing and not riding.
I think the certification idea is really good and self policing to keep it safe of dangerous individuals is paramount, but the very nature of the sport(the amount of room a kite and lines takes up,the power involved,violent wipeouts) and the density of people riding will there will continue to create accidents.
I spent much of this first season of my kiteboarding in sarasota bay kiting from a small boat. Big areas of flat water with no one else around to run into, and no hard objects. I would not even conceive of the idea of going out into the fray unless fundamental skills were solid, I hope for everyone's sake that likes to ride around here that no more accidents occur!

Views great from Lassing... Ready for a steady Sea Breeze and getting back out to the Gulf....

Triton! When's the paaaaa-rty, bra!?!?!

Dolts with kites....
 

As I'm a noob to kiteboarding and Randy is my instructor of choice, I'm inclined to pitch in here. And yes I was there when this crash happened; I was getting my 15m ready for a lesson.

This guy had asked Randy for a lesson, from what Randy had said earlier, and still decided to go out there when Randy was booked. From first hand knowledge going kiting without instruction is a Darwin act waiting to happen. I know the desire to "get out there" when the wind is shit most of the summer.

As for places to learn; sorry but most of the places where the wind is great, everyone is at. Everyone here was a noob at one time, and from what I was told kiters are a pretty great bunch of folks, so let's not get into where to and where to not teach. The skyway has it's perils, one of guys I've met while writing the article on kiteboarding, I'm currently involved with, almost had his "in the rocks" experience and used it to make sure I knew where he had problems. Randy took time to make sure I was way out so when I did face plant, (several times) I did not take out a kiter or wind up with a dangerous situation for myself, mouth full of Tampa Bay excluded.

You can buy a kite anywhere; no salesperson will sidestep a $1000+ sale because there are people too stupid to realize what they are doing. While it would be great to require a card to get a kite (I need to show my card before I can get scuba tanks) I don't see that happening soon enough.

-Roadie

Road dancer....I can appreciate your view, but remember you are new to the sport and your view is limited.

The concerns are this....the Skyway is not a place for a beginner. Many have been taking their chances there and finally someone got bashed. This is not Randy's fault and I don't think anyone is saying it is. There are some concerns that he is teaching there, but if his students are educated to use East Beach after their lessons then alot of problems solved. I have put myself in danger many times rescuing a new rider getting dragged into the rocks. I think people are just getting sick of it and many knew an accident was waiting to happen. Well it finally did.

East Beach is much more forgiving but many don't want to take the extra 10 minutes to get there. East Beach had half the kites that Skyway had Monday night and 10 times the room. It's a no brainer. East Beach pretty much works on the same wind direction as Skyway Northeast so the majority of kiters on this forum agree that new riders should go to East Beach. It is just safer. It has it's hazads, but nothing like the Skyway does.

So I don't see the confusion. Go to East Beach....less crowded....more space....safer spot.

better parking, more launch space, grassy launch space, showers right down the road, 3+ football fields of 1-2ft of water.....etc

Driving with Blinders....
 

Steve-O,

Understood that my view of this is way limited. I also understand the Skyway is not a beginner's spot. I was pretty intimidated being there and you of all folks know my noob + skill level. Still managed to get on that board for an astounding 4 seconds.

East beach would have been much better but I think the guy who bit the rocks would have found something else to get wrecked on.

I saw this as it's not where anyone chooses to teach; it's the idiots who get out into a place with no skills and no instructor that bothers me, add in the fact it's not a beginner's place, and you are asking for disaster.

It's not anyone's fault on that but the guy on the rocks is what I'm saying.

Randy teaching there has nothing to do with this accident; it just seemed to become a focal point that I think detracted from the fact someone who should not have been there was there on their own. My $0.02 on it.

Steve; by the way it's Roadancer (one d, one word) ;)
-Roadie

Skyway was dead onshore. Proven that most accidents occur in this wind direction. East Beach winds were side to side onshore. I don't think this guy would have gotten whacked there. He would have gotten dragged down wind worse case with his kite landing into some trees and some scrapes. Not to say accidents don't happen at East Beach.

There is no way that accident could have been prevented, however, the local kite community is going to do something about it. It may take some time, but I am confident we will come together and create a safe kiting environment. It will not be full proof, but it will be a mixture of prevention and education.

If you take anything from all this, don't kite at the Skyway unless you absolutely have to and you can consistently stay upwind. It's just a really bad idea even if you are aware of the hazards.

Just curious, anyone know how this guy is doing?

Roadancer, the accident is not anyones fault, not Randy's or anyone else's but the rider who put himself into the situation. Even then, it may not have been something that was in the riders control to prevent, we don't know that yet because we have not heard his side of the story. What we DO know is what he could have done to prevent such a bad situation which would have been to launch at a more forgiving launch site.

What I think the majority of the riders here worry about is the EXAMPLE put forth by ANY instructor teaching at the Skyway (as a mentor to newer riders) using the launches which should be limited to more experienced riders as a place for teaching. I admit it, I myself am guilty of this as well with teaching my ex-girlfriend last season. The reason Randy's name was even mentioned above others is because he is the biggest offender of teaching at the Skyway and Backside.

But this season the launches are just getting too crowded to take ANY chances like this and the Skyway needs to be an intermediate level and above launch only going forward if we are going to keep it as a launch site.

Skyway is NOT a place for beginners...period.

Just my $0.02.