Cookin' Out at East Beach-Bring the FOOD! (4-4-09)
 

cool

I commented on the Fuel under the Spring season heading in the other part of the forum. I wanted to say something to the dude without the leash and letting his friend hold the kite without a harness. I'm kicking myself for not nicely saying something. Fear of being the "douchey noob" kiter correcting somebody else overpowered me. Not next time
Seriously, isn't rule #1 wear a leash and rule #2 is don't stand on the beach any longer than you need to with the kite overhead? Oh no, rule #1 is supposed to be use some friggin common sense, and don't put others in harm's way.
I told my girlfriend to sit back and watch the show. She got one

Sounds like it was an interesting day, Steve. Trouble is-kooks don't read the forum.

EB Cookout. :)

Oh Scott, how you are missed on the forum. It has been kinda boring around here lately with out you.

Ride on!!!!

For what it's worth, points well taken.

Happy Kiting from me three. (Tom)

I just want to go on record that I don't think it is a good idea to teach your friends how to kite. I do respect one's rights to do so, but I think seeking out a good instructor with experience is the way to go.

I remember my first bunch of lessons and I made a bunch of mistakes in the beginning. I learned from them and over time offered a much more productive and safer lesson. Teaching someone is like learning to kite. There is a learning curve involved.

There are certainly many kiters out there that could do a good job teaching there friends, but poor teaching is poor teaching certified or not. No leash, flying a kite out of control on the beach, putting others in danger? Putting words into Jim's mouth isn't going to solve the problem, but there is a feeling of frustration and helplessness by kiters and kiters that intsruct especially when dealing with such a reckless approach to teaching this sport.

I remember Al Lindsey helping a friend at EB. It was blowin hard and he launched her right on the beach. That kite came down full throttle inches in front of me. Had it hit my head I think it would have broke my neck. I think it was her first launch. I think Al had one of those moments "I won't do that again". This is the learning curve I speak of. An experienced kiter doesn't always make a good teacher just like a card doesn't insure good teaching either. Good teachers make good teachers. Good teachers learn from their mistakes and apply those lessons learned to the next one. Experience does have its advantages.

Newbs aren't going away. I for one during ground school instruct all my students to launch kites out in the water until they get the hang of it. If something goes wrong, is much easier to let go and recover, plus it doesn't put anyone in danger. I also instruct students to walk as far upwind or downwind of the riding area. With that said, part of the danger of kiting is not the kite, but the kiters themselves. Entanglements, bad launches, bad riding practices, the list goes on. It is easy as a kiter with experience to stay clear of a newb or someone in instruction. Most do so, but a lot don't. Can't we do a better job of using the space we have to keep it safe for everyone??? There is tons of room out there, but we all seem to ride and crowd in the same spot.

I know I am all over the place with this thread, but I see Steve's frustration and I can also appreciate Scott's viewpoints/rights as well. I am not too happy with insults on instructors however, but so be it....you have that right to insult just like everyone else. Anytime you take on a position of leadership, you risk criticism. It comes with the territory. I guess that is why alot of people just choose to keep their mouth shut. It is the easy way out.

For any instructors reading this, believe in what you do. Believe that you are the answers to alot of these problems in kiting and not the problem itself. There will always be critics. Listen and filter through what is valid and what can be thrown away. You do this because you love it and you want to give back to a sport that has given so much to you. Most don't realize how hard it is to try and make a living doing this. It all looks easy on the outside looking in.

I do believe that both sides have very valid point here. Kiting safety affect us (kiters) all. Unsafe anything will cause all of us to LOSE our rights to use the facility. If we all focus on safety, then everyone will be happy. I guess the key disagreement here is how to implement safety. We need to focus on dealing with the ones that are not safety oriented. Let's not make rules where rules are not needed. We are burden with so much rules already in our lives. I know that there are many out there that do not use common sense, but let's focus on those folks and maybe guide them to SAFETY.

The good old days...oh well. Just wanted to say outside of the dispute about authority...

It is my opinion that when people are safe, whether teaching or not, no one cares and there is no reason to intervene. I think both parties would agree with this (maybe presumptuous). It is only when people are kooking out (teaching or not) that we have a problem.

I think that is the point missed. No Steve probably can not and would not question Scott teaching a friend, if he were being safe. But if any of us are being blatantly unsafe ( whether we are certified or not), I believe we all need to get together and get these people out of our spots.

I have gotten with 2-3 others before to do an intervention...the more obstinant a person is the more of us need to approach together. As to authority, I think if we all together feel someone is a danger, we probably could get the rangers to intervene...though I would still be hesitant.

Signs would still be a great idea, I still have that PDF file somewhere...just too broke to buy 10-20 myself.

I will visit and donate a bit to the sign cause. I will also get a firm cost on 20 signs. I think it has to be non-permanent, if I recall. We can give a sign to all instructors and people who are around east beach often. We can also leave a few near the range station (we were told last year). That way if you are the first out ( and want to) you can grab one and stick it in the ground. It would most likely help with confronting those who choose to be outright dangerous...

Rock out with your Kook-out, I mean cook-out!

Danny Johnson

I will happily make a donation for the signs,and was willing to last year as well. The only reason that I didn't last year is that it seemed as though with all of the "discussions"(read arguing), they probably wouldn't get done because of lack of agreement or support by all. When the people who are the ones who are going to have them made have gotten estimates and have a clear cut time of when they will be produced, I will happily donate. Like Scott said, I would have absolutely nicely confronted the guy on the Fuel who crashed on Steve's trainer kite if I had a sign to point to and say, "here's our guidelines, could you put a leash on your kite so you don't get us banned". As a noob who isn't even close to riding upwind still, I still feel as though I need a little backup before I confront someone I see doing dangerous things. So, I'm all for the signs, and my donation will be based on cost to make them. Meaning, if their more expensive than I think they might be, I'll happily donate a little more.
I'd say 95% of you guys wouldn't know who I am if you saw me on the beach. That's because I try to keep to myself so that I'm not the noob that's getting in everybody's way. And eventhough I've taken more than the average number of lessons, I'm still not 100% confortable with my skills. This is simply because my job doesn't allow me to get out nearly as much as I need in order to really lessen my learning curve. But, I'm cautious and safety oriented, and walk way upwind of everyone when I'm out there, so I don't get in your way, or drop my kite on someone's head. I tire myself out by riding downwind, and walking back upwind out of the way of others, and it decreases my time on the water. The reason I get annoyed, is because I go out of my way to do those things, and the next time I'm out at East Beach, I see some dude that has less skills than me(no offense Fuel dude) talking crap about why he would't take lessons, self-teaching his friend, and his friend nearly hurting people. Tha really ticks me off.
I really respect all of your opinions, since you all have been doing this longer than me. Scott has gone out of his way to PM answers to questions I had on other forums, and I appreciate it. I check out Steve's sites all the time, looking to see what local charity work they're doing, and when, because I really would like to help out. Unfortunately, none of the events are on days that I can get off of work to help. But I'm going to keep checking it out until finally my schedule will allow me to help out. And I took Steve-O's safety class at WSW a while ago, and it was awesome. So I say, let's all get along. It looks to me like pretty much everyone on the forum is working for the same goals. To have fun kiting, to make sure people are safe, and to keep our area open to everyone. It sucks that sometimes it's easy to argue on a forum, because its a less personal interaction. I say we all go out and have some fun. If you see a dude with a blue expedition riding a waroo(badly), come over and say hi, cause I'd like to get to know everybody out on the beach too.
If you look at the forum, there's a dude from Louisiana(like me) introducing himself cause he's new to the area, and there's a guy from England coming over for vacation to kite and he's asking about our area. Let's make sure they don't think we're a bunch of bickering douche's and scare them off from coming out and kiting with us. Cause as I know from personal experience, it can be overwhelming to kite with people that are so passionate about thte area.
One last thing, and it's not a "call out", but Uchuche, you don't want to make it personal, but calling somebody a pu**y on the forum makes it personal. I would take it to heart if you called me one on here.

My only wishes from this whole thread for the few who read it.....


1. Instructors need to respect everyone's space, we all have a right to be out there.
2. Instructors need to take more effort to teach away from crowds. EB can get crowded, but it does not take too much effort to take your students downwind of the "riding area".
3. Realize we live in an imperfect world, and it is how you manage your existence within that world can be the difference between a positive or negative experience for you and those involved.

I have always used driving as a parallel to our problems in this sport. Drunk driving is a huge problem in this country. It cost lives every day. Keep the big picture in mind as an instructor and realize that our problems are minute in comparison to the problems of the world.

I think this has been one of the most constructive threads on the forum in awhile. Welcome back Scott and Tom. Your insights are appreciated and well noted.

Tomorrow is day 8 of the spring 2009 wind run. Lovin it!!!!

good advice steve-o.

Wow, lots can happen in a day. I feel like I am reading a whole season of 24. Who is Jack Bauer? :shock:

The OP wrote:
Kook and Instructor in the same area.

this puzzles me..............................

Question: Is it the Kooks responsibility to know that they are kooky and stop or is it the Instructors responsibility to stop the Kook?

Versus

Should the Instructor avoid areas altogether with Kooks and let other Kiters handle the Kooks?

After all, we are concerned about the students/instructors well-being, aren't we?
Because it seems to me a kook will (usually) not be a kook forever, However there will always be some other kook to take his place. Bank on that. So, should instructors avoid them, or should they confront them?

That is the real question (knowing full well that an instructor has no authority whatsoever over anybody else no matter what)

Just use common sense

To anyone that says no one reads the forum any more is full of shit!!! This thread alone has gotten over 2500 views in just a couple of days.

Steve, when you have cooled off, and willing, I would like to have a long talk someday, maybe over a nice cold beer.

8300+ views and counting. This could be a record.

Guys, it's time to stick ( The Fork ) in this one...........Jordan

Can a few of you guys that enjoy posting to these useless discussions take a moment please and post in the “Lets Ride” section when the wind is blowing or going to blow. I personally find those posts more informative to the kite community as well as advising riders when to expect their next ride.

It’s always been appreciated by myself when checking this forum to find that someone is kind enough to mention when we expect more wind in that section.

Thanks.

Wow
 

It's funny to me.. all season long the forum has been, for all intensive purposes, dead compared to the previous years. I too found this forum to be so useful and helpful, especially when I was learning. I even had a concern, for the new riders, that they weren't benefiting from it the way myself and so many others had.

And now this...! The most involved thread all season... and the most views... and all for bullshite. Truly Sad. We're all friends here. You guys have been through so much together. To exert so much energy on the negative is truly a waste of everyone's time. I've been sorry to witness this all unfold.

I do want to chime in on only one point here. I was present the day that started this thread. I agree that there was unacceptable behavior that day. Not only on the new guys, which at least can be understood from some degree.. bc they're new. But also from seasoned riders. It was the seasoned riders that actually made me feel embarrassed. The situation was not handled well at all. I now regret not being the one to go and "talk" to the guys that clearly had no clue. Instead, I watched others berate them and laugh at them. Not cool. Someone finally told them they needed a leash and they put one on. But I continued to hear people make comments, that these beginners could clearly hear, that made me feel ashamed.

Listen guys.. we're a community here. One that I've been so proud to be a part of. Everyone has been so genuinely friendly and helpful. Perhaps as the sport grows it's inevitable for the tides to shift. But I wouldn't expect to see it from the core founders in the area. And not from my friends. Calling newbies "Kooks" and pointing out they're "kooky" behaviour is negative. Laughing at them is negative. Not helping out is only hurting everyone. It'd be nice to see everyone jump when they see something that could potentially end disastrously. I know we can all witness so many events in a day, especially at east beach, that raise a brow. That we can become complacent and end up sitting back and listen to the "circus music" instead of trying to stop the record. But this is irresponsible and a move in the wrong direction. I've certainly been guilty of it but after this expose, I know I will try to isolate myself from what I see as detrimental to our scene and do what is right for now on. If only to make amends for this shameful situation... even tho I shouldn't have to be the one making the amends...

Wow.. that was a long point. At least for a "lurker" that never posts :mrgreen: Let me summarize. We all were beginners once. We have ALL needed help from time to time. Most of us have had our asses saved by someone looking out. Grow up and do the right thing!!!

Peace
Your dread headed buddy
Kevin

Being a outsider and haven't ever been to EB but seeing it's a state park I find it strange that the state would allow any type of commercial business at all in the park as it opens them up to liability big time. Here in RI we have a semi famous poleboard spot named Fogland and the town found out that a local shop was charging for rentals & lessons etc and they almost got chucked out and was forced to stop everything. (didnt bother me a bit as he tried to tell me kiting was outlawed there, i promtly showed him the center of my butt) Any comercial business being done on park land is not allowed unless it's permitted in. So I would say all you guys teaching and charging money & exp if you are advertising that are on thin ice and if the state feels that they are being subjected to liability (of which they are) you're going to be chucked out, they don't want to deal with permits etc. And as for local riders I would suggest strick kook police just like we do up north here, if you don't know what your doing your not kiting there period.

As Big D says go get a real job and enjoy kitesurfing without exploiting it and most likley screwing it up.

Exploiting it? Get a real job? Screwing it up for everyone?

Wow that's offensive. I know this thread is heated, and rightfully so. So many opinions that piss a lot of people off.

Are hang gliding instructors, skydiving instructors, race car instructors, ect. exploiting their sport? There is a NEED for good training. If no one trained anyone, and we all (instructors) got REAL JOBS, your problems would be solved????? The sport would be better off??? Are music teachers exploiting music??? I can't believe we are of the same species.

I busted my ass all day today, drove the entire length of the county (2hr), walked in knee high muck for miles, gave my clients a lift home, and helped get a new rider into the sport safely to come home to "I'm screwing it up for everyone".

Oh let's do the math.....was on the clock from 8:30-8:30, made about $200 bucks which the IRS gets around 45%, so net was around 110 bucks. Thats less than 10 dollars an hour.

Maybe I do need to get a real job and work for AIG and rape the country blind with my million dollar bonus for putting the country in the worst financial shape it has been in our lifetime. Are they hiring????

On a lighter note, was awesome FN wind today. Sunset was going off with super flat water and steady 25knot winds. Tony and I invented a new sport today. It's called tandem kitesurfing. Check it out sometime. It's gonna be the newest thing. Tony were going YOUTUBE with it. LOL

Ok now on to some serious business. Please check the thread ATTENTION NORTH COUNTY RIDERS.

13,000 hits and counting.....amazing!!! Steve your sure know how to stir things up, gotta give you that.

should have known that a lull in the wind would bring these types of threads back..

yikes.

glad i have stayed away.

glad no one got hurt.. that is most important.

people on this forum are typically experienced riders.. thats the problem with venting on here. the target audience is lost. many cycles of this same banter has come and gone and it still does not change the fact that you've got people showing up that do not take the sport seriously and have no understanding of its dangers.

the only way you can combat this is ON THE BEACH. forum posts do absolutely nothing.

btw.. that sign that was posted earlier in the thread is by no means "THE LAW"

I made that in photoshop one day and posted it. :)

Ah, glad to see the forum is still a drama pit.