probably 99% of downed kites are due to people trying tricks, whether it be an inverted handlepass or a backroll.....

so the bouys might actually encourage them to stay further away.....

Well after seeing the skyway lately... it's not the skill level which is the current problem... it's the advanced riders jumping close to shore.

I too mistakingly thought it was beginners out there who were most at risk but that seems to be a gross error at least on my part.

But like Scott said... it's hard to walk over to someone who has been riding longer and is obviously a much more advanced rider and ask them to ride further out.

I tried once but was told they needed to land close to shore in case they got hurt. To me that just sounds off since shallow water is where you are most likely to get hurt.

Now I'm not really trying to blame the advanced riders... because I think the REAL reason this happens is because the contests promote doing tricks close to shore... the more likely you are to get busted up the higher the points (and this goes with just about any extreme sport). This is just the mentality of ANY extreme sport.

That's just how it is. So, placing this in perspective... maybe it's just not possible to convince advanced riders to stay further out without changing the entire mentality of the sport? It would be like taking gaps, handrails, and stairs away from the skateboarders. That's not a challenge I would like to take on, and honestly I am not sure I am interested in turning an extreme sport into a nerf football and a safety net.

So what now! No idea!

It certainly doesn't hurt to convince the next generation of riders to jump further out... after all they are not riding pro contests and have no reason to be taking such risks.

Dude, Where's my Kite???

this is why i think we need the bouys, i am guilty of jumping to close to shore, but most of the time it is becuase i am not really thinking about it, jsut having fun and showing off, if there were bouys it would be a lot easie to stay on the outside of them......

My 5th post ever, sorry if I miss counted earlier.
 

Upon reading all of the posts I will offer my sage wisdom. Why should I have credibility in this.... well read on and see if it makes sense. First of all the Great Stormatzio just isn't an internet lurker and kiteboarder, but has a PhD in sociology specifically in the study of group dynamics and this is what our subject is all about. The basic problem is that are launches are getting crowded and people are infringing on other peoples rights (ie. safety, area to fly, jump, etc.). This is happening on both sides of the argument. A newbie would argue that the Vets are concerned that new kiters are getting in their way and don't know the rules. The newbies just want to fly and not get hassled. Using the social theory of X/Y one could surmise that no one person wants to upset the group and everyone in reality just wants to get along. Problems occur when communication fails and people are not aware of the "rules of the group".

I think at this point in our evolution the sign idea is an awesome idea. First of all what it actually tells people is that there is a group of people on this beach that care about our sport and if you act like a punk we are going to call you out. I read the sign and didn't remember if there was anything saying that this was posted by local kiters. That will bring the message home that the guys who put the sign up are probably hanging out on the beach. That gets into another theory of self appointed mindguards.

The bottom line to this discussion is that the sign will make everyone responsible for enforcement of the rules and everyone on notice that we care about our beach.

Tags...... Not so good of an idea. First of all, I get to ride all over. I ride in Florida, Texas, Cali, etc. Everywhere I go that they try the PASA, blah, blah, card system sucks. It's too hard to control and those who are responsible for the tags begin self selecting like in the Stanford Prison Experiment (another awesome social order experiment) and the next thing you know you have a beach full of kite police running around. We would be setting up an unenforceable system with no authority. Think of the classroom hall monitor. Example: Alpha Male Dude shows up at the beach. Maybe two or three people riding, early morning so the "authority has no backup". Kite Cop walks up, hey where is your tag? Dude: What tag? Kite Cop: You need a tag to ride here. Dude: Where do I get a tag? Kite Cop: Well you need to have a local instructor and pay some cash, who for instance isn't here or go drive 30 minutes north. Dude: F___ Off. You can see how the rest of the story goes, but if you ever rode in Miami when the first started the card thing, bouys in and out, that is exactly what happened.

So in conclusion, Tags = bad idea, can't enforce, someone is going to try and make a buck off of it which will only tick people off more, kite police will only get beat up by bigger guys because the rage gets focused on one person.

Sign - Great idea. Easy to enforce, uses the group presence as the enforcing factor, anyone can call you out for being dumb, plus if you ride there you should back up your buddy.

So I hope everyone enjoyed the psychology lecture. I hope it didn't bore anyone, it's just the way I think.

storm..

my initial post about the tags was mostly to ID a rider as being an instructor/helper. someone that was basically offering themselves up to be asked questions and be someone that any new rider to approach. when i started i knew no one.. my learning curve suffered. the instructor that taught me was not the st. pete local that he made himself out to be. i expected to see him on the beach so he could give me some pointers.. but that never happened. i finally met some other riders and my riding improved imensely.. if i had known who to ask for advice earlier it might have made a HUGE difference in my learning days...

The whold tag-thing got more detailed with the different colors.. and i understand how it could turn into a kite-cop scenario.. would go against everything I intended.. but it could be an unfortunate easy transition..

a sign is a great idea if people read it and do their best to understand why its there... if its just looked at and not read or not understood then its just a waste of a piece of plastic.

Interesting take, Stomatzio. I am curious, have you read the Moral Animal by Robert Wright? If so, we should go grab a drink. If not, you should (read it)

I personally think the main problem isn't infringement of rights of one group v. another within our small "tribe" but a realization by many of us that the entire "tribe" may well lose it's privilege to kite the SW when we kill a member of the larger society (kite in highway related traffic death). Many have posted how "dangerous" the SW is.
I honestly view the SW as pretty harmless to me. But, it's a very dangerous spot for a kite to get out of control or to get away. It goes straight toward the road. That's my primary concern. I've been dealing with newbies and showboats for years.(I use those terms just as a mean to break it down, not trying to be derogatory).
It's easy.. ride upwind of them. My concern is even greater than tensions between newbies and showboats . It's us losing the spot forever.

Anyway, interestingly enough, I draw the exact same conclusions that you have drawn and I did think about our group dynamic to reach them in terms of the tag. I just want to stress that we are a small group within a much larger one.

Even with my conclusion, I have zero problem wearing a tag, but I think that's a lot of effort for minimal outcome.
The sign is a good idea. It can't hurt as a tool for peer pressure, but in the end, it still comes down to riders wanting to do the right thing for our "tribe" and the whole community (many driving home with kids in the mini-van).
In my mind, with this larger frame of reference, I think new riders (green as in not self sufficient) should avoid the SW because they want to avoid it for the good of all. Not because they get under my skin, but b/c they present one of the highest risks of going downwind toward the Interstate. If they can't maneuver well, around a lot of people, they are probably going to get in trouble. It didn't use to be as crowded and you could find small area to practice. Those days seem to be gone for the SW.

I think veterans should try to be more careful too, because they could tangle up and also have kites headed for the road. They should do it because they want to though, after taking the larger picture into consideration. That's just my take.
Thanks for your insights Stormatzio.

completely different scenario, your argument is flawed.

Tags/ streamers/ cards in Crandon were enforceable and sanctioned as a requirement to ride there.

Here they would not be enforceable nor required.

Just because the rules were not enforced over there didn't mean they didn't exist.

That being said, I agree with you 100% that streamers or whatever will not work here as anything other than as a voluntary way for people to show they are proficient. key word here

he should ...what....
grab a drink by himself or read the book.....:confused:

Storm makes a good point, and we've already had some disputes about the tags... nobody wants to wear a newb tag, and nobody wants to have to pay to get "recertified" to wear the intermediate tag. Also, few people want to rely on person or org X to get those tags, etc.

I say we focus on getting the sign in place and see what happens. Let's call it Plan A :) Bryan, could you send the latest version of the sign to Wolfie? I think he was going to have one made.

Silent Majority
 

The Silent Majority :oops:

Guilty. This is in fact my first post. I suppose I’ve been reluctant due to my status as a “newbie” and until recently (very recently) it seems like the problems have focused on beginners. I’ve actually been flying kites for only a year now and have been up and riding on a board for the last half of last season. I’ve used this forum and others as a resource for learning and certainly don’t feel that I have the experience to offer much useful input. So I’ve kept my mouth shut. But I’ve read and read and read and feel I should point out what should be so obvious to everyone.
I’ve reached a few conclusions. First, I’m not sure I will EVER ride at Skyway. Which is truly unfortunate bc I’m so close I could walk to the launch from my front door, literally. I had for sometime been anxiously awaiting the day that I had reached a comfort level that I could ride their (due to its proximity), but after reading posts about it and watching the mayhem with my own eyes… I think I’ll give it up. There are other options and much better ones at that. Let me explain myself.
Why have I avoided SW? There are many reasons I have never ridden at SW. The first being the density of kiters. I’ve felt that while learning and until I could go in any direction I wanted including upwind that my greatest asset to safety was distance. Distance from obstruction (rocks, roads, bridges), distance from bystanders, distance from other kiters. Distance from new kiters with similar lack of control to myself. Distance from the experienced out of respect… though it appears this turned out to be the safer option as the majority of the reckless seem to be those with the most experience. Statistically, and I’m certain Ricki could back this up, the more experienced are exponentially more likely to get hurt. Secondly and most importantly, it appears that SW (E shore) is a chosen spot for east winds. That means onshore. Isn’t one of the fundamental rules for safety to NEVER ride in onshore or offshore winds? At least not for beginners. Are all these lessons I hear of at SW occurring with onshore winds??? Do you expect someone starting out to maintain ground upwind? Totally Irresponsible!!! And I’m really surprised that this has never been addressed… unless I’ve simply missed it and then my apologies.
I’ve actually avoided the roundabout at East Beach too. Only bc of congestion. It really is the ideal place for e winds though. I do go to EB but I park in the parking lot and walk down the beach. Yup, that’s me ;) I can understand why I’m literally the only one out there. It’s not nearly as convenient as parking your car where you’re going to launch and filling your kite up with a compressor. But I feel much safer with the seemingly infinite amount of space I’m offered with a 5 minute walk. And while learning to stay upwind I had plenty of beach to ride down and walk back up. And if I ended up too far downwind the beach bends and kills the wind… no threat of drifting too far downwind.
My main point here, in case it’s been lost, is for beginners. In east winds (or north winds for that matter) please avoid Skyway… you’re asking for trouble. East Beach at Fort Desoto is literally the perfect spot. If you are giving lessons please note this with equal importance. And too all of those dedicated to improving riding safety and conditions, Kudos to You!! I think the best ideas yet have been brought up most recently… sliders far offshore as possible and buoys to identify a launch/landing buffer zone (which by the way offer little hazard with weights only just heavy enough to keep them in place.. crab traps have a lot of concrete to keep them from being lost during the stormiest of weather).

Most Importantly Be Safe and Have Fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Best first post of all time.
Most useful thread too (maybe).

zenlikeme, first, welcome to hell! (I'm kidding.. that's the name of the thread)

Second, great first post, thanks for speaking up. You must have either had a great instructor, or spent a LOT of time reading about kiteboarding because you seem to have a pretty good understanding of how to play it safe when you are starting out.

Next time I am out at East Beach I'll look you up and say hey.

-tom

zen..

truly.. by this season ..assuming you are riding upwind with ease... the SW is an amazing place to ride.. there is SO MUCH ROOM if you make it that way.. you will see that the riders that want to be clear of the clutter can do so in matter of a couple tacks.. i almost exclusively ride inbetween the sandbar and the north bridge.. its light congestion usually.. if not.. i move away.

the skyway is one of the most amazing kiting places florida has to offer. i am certain of that.. EB is another destination MUST for any kiter in a 300 mile radius... and i applaud you for checking the scene out before kiting there and for doing the right thing at your kiting level.

I am proud to say that I went an entire season before I kited at the skyway because I listened to my instructor and to others on the local forum. I was riding upwind and doing small jumps before I kited at the skyway for the first time..

now the skyway backside (west) can be one of those "kite at your own risk" areas but only in the sense of the hazards.. if the wind is good, you can launch and tack out across the channel and will find yourself with so much room in every direction you will go nuts. of course coming back in to land is a pain.. but if you are SAFE you will be ok.

smart thing to do is to learn the area, find out about the hazards, understand the level of skill it takes to safely kite there and then have fun.

ONe dAy..
 

Thanks Guys ;) and thanks to you Bryan for not letting me completely rule out SW... it'd truly be a shame if I never ended up feeling comfortable riding there... I could probably launch from my backyard and be there in less than a minute!

you could launch at the SW and be at a much better spot in a few tacks upwind a mile or two north from SW on an east or ENE wind

thats alright , cause everyone else is toooooo lazy to go upwind so I have the place to myself.

thats also why I love to kite @ Crandon cause everybody is toooo lazy to go to the actual good spot ( virginia key )

I really think there R alot of other better places to kite but people just don't realize it

yeah you should definitely experience it at some point .. but not until you are comfortable with it. Usually if you get there early (8am) all of the college kids are still sleeping so you will the place to yourself and few other early birds.

Stay way upwind of everyone and you are golden.

I actually rode solo at the SW for about an hour and a half Sunday morning. It was solid 15 knots.
Time and place, as they say.

Saturday morning only had about 4 of us until 10 am.(when it usually dies)

Newbie checking in. While I realize that SW and EB are 2 of the best spots, I really think there needs to be more mention of all the other riding spots especially the ones that are best for beginners. While a sign is a good step in promoting safety, instead of just telling beginners where not to ride how about making it public knowledge of all the places that are much better suited for beginners? This information would hopefully come from their instructor first but a few posts on here would probably be very helpful as well.

I took a lesson at Lassing Park and for now that is my go to place - shallow water, room to spread out a bit, and on a weekday not all that crowded. Where else is there like this that would be good for beginners that doesn't get too crowded? Would it hurt labeling some spots as beginner spots and try to direct newcomers there? I don't think newbies would mind much about the label and instead they would be happy to know that when they dump their kite for the 10th time that day that they aren't going to affect 8 other guys right next to them.

See you all at the SW in about 6 months:D

Thanks for logging on.
Lassing and East beach might be about it in this area in terms of good spots for new riders.
St. Pete has a very limited number of spots to ride on easts and unlimited spots for wests.
That's really the problem is the limited number of spots for east wind.

How about using heavy machinery to carve out a new launch site for east winds. We could create a sandbar and make it large enough to accomodate all of us. We'll start at zen's backyard. :) Too extreme??

RM3001

All is true as there are not that many great places for beginners to go. East Beach over the Skyway for sure. Gulf over the backside of the Skyway for sure on westerlies. Yes the gulf is deeper and wavier, but a bit more forgiving than the backside.

When riding Eastbeach on an East wind, just make sure you take the time to walk way upwind of the riding area. This will have to be done in about a foot of soft muck with your kite in the air, but it is the only way. This will allow you some riding time as you are going downwind before getting into the riding area. On southerly winds East Beach is more onshore so it is a bit more difficult to get away from the riding area. Bottom line, effort will need to be taken to stay clear of the riding area to keep yourself and others from getting tangled. Unfortunately, East beach can get crowded so get there on weekdays and early morning for least crowds.

Riding the gulf can have some advantages as you can just work yourself downwind for miles and take a trolley back to your car. Plenty of room and no walking. What could be better???

Hit these spots on winds that your are comfortable in and you will be fine. It is all about being patient and finding the right conditions for your ability level. There are no shortcuts.

Sean,

What are your thoughts about teaching without a chase boat.

If I were going to teach, I'd be sure to include a chase vehicle along with all the satey items(tags, weather handbooks, signs, ect,)

I ask Sean, cuz to my knowledge, he is the most qualified to speak on this subject for obvious reasons.

I'm sure at some point the student is proficient enuff2 ditch the chase boat.

LP iz not a great spot for beginners for this reason.

Skyway does have deeper waters so it iz a better choice IMO.

By far the >>>best<<< spot for lessons in st pete is between tarpon key and jackass key.

This is the area between I275 and Tierra Verti/Ft. Desoto.

Waist deep water and it works on ANY wind direction.

Steve O, please tell me your not teaching on our gulf beaches.
peace

Brian,

That's a big notta. Teach around Caladesi State Park, Honeymoon State Park, 3 rooker sand bar, and Anclote Key. Also have used a chase boat between Tarpon and Jackass key.

I have done a few basic kite flying lessons on the beach, but have never tried to put someone in the water with a kite on the beach. IMO it just doesn't work very well. But that's me.

My Backyard!
 

Hey Sean B... love the idea.. don't know about heavy machinery, but if the right hurricane hits.... it's on :D :D :D Besides who wants all these damn condos taking up precious waterfront anyways :lol:

"That's a big notta. Teach around Caladesi State Park, Honeymoon State Park, 3 rooker sand bar, and Anclote Key. Also have used a chase boat between Tarpon and Jackass key.

I have done a few basic kite flying lessons on the beach, but have never tried to put someone in the water with a kite on the beach. IMO it just doesn't work very well. But that's me."



cool cool
yo man you rock.
peace

bump.
Another goodie