So what was the result of the meeting?

A hangover?

Are the luggage tags for identifying level, or just for contact info?

What good is a sticker on a car?

The purpose this thread and meeting was to identify new riders, correct?

Was any agreement reached on this point?

Good outcome. I like the idea of the luggage tag on the harness very much. For the sign issue. I think approval for Ft. Desoto could be achieved and thus, no need to replace the sign constantly. As far as the sign problem at the skyway is concerned; What if the sign was portable...much like the flags Randy sticks in the ground everytime he is there to signify his location and promote Best. If the signs were cheap and could be distributed to a few people that ride the skyway most...maybe those people could just stake it in the ground everytime they ride and remove it before they leave??? This could alleviate some of the concerns regarding replacement on a regular basis.

Sounds like another meeting with only the instructors involved would be a good idea. BBQ+Beer is nice but I don't think it is the right atmosphere for a serious decision making.

Hopefully the local instructors from wsw/triton will come up with a working system we can all encourage/enforce.

gotta start somewhere..

get together was nice.. had to skip out early due to other obligations .. but I saw the core group of experienced riders and instructors going over all the options. Everyone was serious about trying to find a way to get the ball rolling.

From the conversations that I was involved with heres what I took from the get together (besides a slight buzz)..

1. Signs will be distributed ASAP. Still some questions on exactly how to get these out there and exactly what they will say.. but its the bare bones basic start that needs to happen. Conversation of posting on sign details about some areas being restricted to intermediate and advanced riders only (Skyway) and others being more "rules to follow" types. Signs may have details on "Ask another rider that is wearing a XXXX color tag if you have any questions" to get item # 2 going.

2. Distribute stickers for cars and/or clips for harnesses to riders that are considered intermediate skill or above. These will need to be agreed upon and distributed by local instructors. Cost should be nothing (if possible) and they serve only to let other riders know that you are a capable rider. This is not a certification and is simply to help out skilled riders to quickly ID those on the beach and for newbie to ID those that might be able to help them.. This will need to be refined to a very simple and easy to implement method and will need as much local support as possible. The ONLY way this will work is if we all adopt this as "our system" and we stick to it. If we dont.. then back to square one and more ideas.

3. Do all we can as a group to spread the word of how great all of us Kitesurfers are.. Jayson's meeting w/ the politician, beach clean ups sponsored by kite groups.. all of these will get our name out and people will see we are organized and have numbers. Maybe get some more Kite-demo events out on the beaches to showcase the sport to people who might be interested and get some more mentions in local media.. Basically we need to keep our name in the positive as much as possible.

In the end tho.. its up to us to enforce this as much as possible. Get to know who is an instructor.. its probably a good idea to approach a new rider that might be doing something they shouldnt with a group and preferably with an instructor. Be cool and professional and most will respond to it positively..

Sounds great, glad it was a productive meeting after all. I was wondering because the thread sort of died, but maybe everyone was just busy catching up on the weekend.

The tag idea seems reasonable I guess. Whatever is decided upon I'll enforce/encourage however I can.

Reaction to the meeting
 

First want to thank Matt for offering his place for the meeting. All active instructors in the bay area were present minus kitemare....I believe those guys don't hang here in the summer. At least someone has some common sense.

Some common themes I am hearing on this thread.

1. There is a strong support for signs at crowded riding spots. Skyway East and West as well as East Beach.

2. An ID system would be helpful in identifying new, unfamiliar, and non-local riders.

3. Everyone needs to take a more active role in monitoring these areas in regards to new riders with instructors leading the charge.

So far, no one on the forum has been strongly opposed to the above 3 items. As a matter of fact, some excellent suggestions have been made by many concerned riders.

The meeting was casual and very informal, but discussion was present and some decisions were made. I don't think this will be our last get together but only our first of many in making some important decisions about the future of our sport in Tampa Bay. I am glad it was casual as it allowed for a relaxed flow of ideas. I do hope however, to have a few more of these sessions in a more formal atmosphere.

Item 1 was easy enough. All that is needed is to work out the details of what will be on the signs, get funding, get them built, get permission to install, and get them in place. East Beach will be the tough one. We are working on getting some signs that will last and hold up to the elements. Wood was discussed but Gabe may have a lead on signs that are used for the highways. Triton Kiteboarding may be able to fund these signs, and Matt has a meeting with the powers that be at Eckerd to get permission to install at East Beach. Scott...heard you may have an in with the park ranger.

Item 3 can only be helped by the installment of these signs. We all agreed we can pick out a new rider, and we all agreed that we aren't so quick to help or interfere as usually conflict may arise. However, the signs may empower anyone to get involved in an unsafe situation. Instructors are going to step up and offer advice and assistane with anyone that is struggling. Back us up, and we will back you guys up. There was also concern about dangerous riding practices by intermediate and advanced riders and the signs will address that as well.

Item 2 is the tough one. I feel this area had some for it, and some against. Some of us were concerned about being able to identify on the water, as some were concerned about identification on land. A tag on the harness or arm would be great on land, but not on water. A tag on the kite line would be great on the water, but not on land. More discussion on this I think will be needed. We felt that taking care of the signs and being more proactive on the beach may solve alot of problems. The ID system may not be necessary but I would like to leave it open for discussion as there was not an overall feeling against it.

My suggestion for now is to tackle the signs head on. Any help would be appreciated. A rough draft will be drawn up and shared with everyone before it is built. We may need to come together and put up some funds to get them built. I know Triton is going to do what they can. Count WSW in for some funding. Local donations couldn't hurt. Let's see what Matt can do first.

There is a great movie quote from one of my favorite movies Apollo 13 "Work the problem people!"

Have a great week
Steve-O

At EB if someone is being stupid and reckless and is truly a risk to himself and others in the park, I am sure the Rangers would be happy to ask him to leave if they were notified of the situation. This goes for anything not just kite boarding.

I would hope that we could handle issues with any one rider ourselves.. would hope that Ranger and/or Police involvement would be a super rare occurance.

but.. if someone is being reckless regarless of what they are doing, I am all for calling in the people that get paid to get these people off the beach. Getting the police involved before some fight or whatever breaks out would look better than having them show up after a punch is thrown or a line is cut.

would think these situations would be rare.. if the community as a whole is behind the guidelines, then it will become the norm.

And just something to think about.. the Skyway is a great place to ride.. but there are other options as well. Lassing and even the downtown St. Petersburg Beach are great on ENE ... Maybe signs at these places as well if the others are accepted w/o issue.

I have the catalog for the luggage tags. they can be personalized however we want them. (level 1 rider, etc) they secure with a rubber/plastic cord that seems very pliable and strong. If they are bought in bulk, they are inexpensive. If we were to order 250, depending on the type we were to choose, they range between $.79 and $1.85/tag. I think emergency contact info on them will also be an added benefit.

cool deal amber..

can you post some pics? or a website? waterproof?

here is a link to the promotions company that i have contact with. As you can see there are TONS of options. Need to narrow down by durability and water-proof. I've got stuff to do at work so i can't search thru them but the catalog i have in front of me has some that self-laminate whatever you stick underneath (business card size, etc)

Take a look and see what you think.

gotta go fight fraud ;)

http://www.rockstarpromos.com/

type in luggage tag where it says keyword and you'll get TONS of results

even something like the "801-Tag" would be great.. simple.. cheap (25 cents) and I think it would snap under any load so that it would not be an added risk to wear it.

could put a hi-vis colored laminated card inside w/ info and thats would be that..

in the search.. add price ranges below to trim the results..

the "TAG-NAME2" style is pretty much exactly what I was thinking of as well..

good find..

I like this one too...(IL40-1)
I'm not sure if anyone is still thinking about the ribbon thing, but i was thinking that: 1. We all have more than one kite and 2. we all share kites

Anyway...most of us don't share harnesses and we mostly wear the same one all the time. You aren't going to forget the luggage tag if you don't forget your harness. Emergency info provided (just in case)

The instructors could choose the cards that go inside. (this could be as simple and cheap) as printing stuff off someone's home computer on neon computer paper and then putting it into this tag.

I have not read the whole thread so someone may have come up with this idea already.

Have we reviewed the possibility of requiring or at least promoting the use of helmets at our launch sites for newer riders? At least until the rider can demonstrate that they are of intermediate level or above? I know we can't "enforce" this persay anywhere but in DeSoto with the Rangers backing, but we could post it on the signs which would encourage the use of a helmet.

I wore mine religiously for a very long time, then admittedly have slacked off quite a bit last season...because lets face it, not many like wearing a helmet. But maybe encouraging it until riders are at that intermediate level wouldn't be a bad idea... I think we have had several head lacerations in the last few years as a result of accidents as well including this most recent injury at the Skyway...just a thought, throwing it out there and know it will get plenty of backlash but in my opinion it isn't that big a deal to wear a helmet until you are an intermediate level rider...

Steve-O, this also may be a topic for conversation at the shop, letting the newer kiters know that a helmet would be expected of newbies coming in so they know what to expect? Just an idea, not trying to throw rules at WSW...

Okay, now you can all crucify my post!!! ;)

I agree with the helmet idea... beginners should always wear a helmet. It's a great way to identify them too.

Since I often wear a helmet people would stay far away from me. No complaints here.

I also have been slacking on the helmet lately... but I try to wear it when it's blowing 20+ or when a spot is crowded with new riders I don't know... like backside.

You guys are fortunate that the primary access threats seem to be from new riders, that simplifies things. Not all areas have that advantage.

Regarding helmet use, experienced guys (3 yrs+) have been far more likely to suffer severe injury, 65 % vs. 17 %, (including brain trauma, one of the more common types of severe injury) than newbies (<1 yr.). More at: http://fksa.org/showthread.php?t=4125

By all means suggest new guys wear good lids, makes sense. But at the same time please keep in mind who has been carrying the greater risk for sometime.

You are doing a good job getting organized and generating a productive flow of ideas. Well done.

Because they cost $30... and PASA cards expire if you don't pay your yearly till.

Rule 37.56.89_C:
no landing kites by there bridles..... :)

Unfortunately new riders try to copy what the experienced riders are doing even if it means jumping 100 feet from shore.

You can witness this on any big day at East Beach as everyone competes for the "show space" where the best riders are doing the big stuff.

If the experienced riders can break the rules, so can the newbie.

Are we prepared to ask the best riders to jump further out?

One reason I brought up the example (of the sign) is that I would guess very shortly the "rules/suggestions/random thoughts" of the sign are going to be need to be agreed upon.
That's the very first step in getting a sign ready is it's printing, right?

I know we are trying to take baby steps, but the sign in itself presents the problem of needing a list that is complete, because I don't think we will be able to add one rule per week to it. Or maybe we could? Jayson? Wood... carving... IDK.

Since Randy is out at the Skyway 99% of the time, we could ask him to post the sign. It could be a vinyl sign that would be displayed on the side of his camper or between two pvc post.

Vinyl signs are low cost, easily made and can roll up nicely. They are made with UV protection so they won't fade after one season.

Randy might not go for this since it might look like he has liability if something goes wrong.

Just a thought.

He already has a best pro kiteboarding center lessons sign and best flags so I can't see it being much different...plus he's been placing orange cones around the launch area at backside. The sign sounds like a good idea.

not i good idea, from a newbie or a visting kiters point of view, it would look like the rules were created by him only and not as enforced by everyone, definately need a stand alone sign, it it makes the rules seem more as a universal opinion of all the local riders, not just the guy whos vehicle it s on

Good point.

again, I think these are all valid points.. cool that everyone is throwing ideas and scenarios into the pot. Its a complicated matter, no doubt, with tons of possible answers.. but the fact is that if we dont self regulate now, someone will do it for us.

take a look at this and tell me you'd like to have to abide by this crap:
http://www.miamikiteboarding.com/NewRulesforCrandon.htm

Its about developing safe habits from the very beginning and *hoping* those stick.

Sign should be as simple and thorough:

I think there are 3 major points..

1. launch area clear
2. landing and launching kites safely
3. riding safely

something like....(Please edit/add/delete as you feel necessary..)

Keep Launch Areas Clear -
--Park away from beach
--Keep Bar and Lines wrapped on all beached kites

Launch and Land Kites Safely -
--Assist incoming riders land their kites
--Give right-of-way to incoming riders
--Only allow experienced riders launch kites
--Launch and clear the beach as quickly as possible
--Keep a safe distance from the beach on incoming tacks

Ride Safely -
--Helmet and flotation devices recommended for all riders
--Always give right of way to other riders
--Do not perform stunts near the beach line

Some minor suggestions (in italics):



Kite at your own risk and only with proper training.

Keep Launch Areas Clear -
--Park away from beach
--Secure your kite and lines when not riding.

Launch and Land Kites Safely -
--Assist incoming riders land their kites
--Give right-of-way to launching or landing riders
--Only allow experienced riders launch kites
--Launch and clear the beach as quickly as possible
--Stay 200' from shore while riding.

Ride Safely -
--Helmet and flotation devices recommended for all riders
--Always obey right of way rules for kiting
--Do not perform or land tricks within 200' of shore.



200' is only about 2 kite line lengths ... the standard safety distance for kiting if I recall correctly.

Don't forget the obvious.

Kite leashes are required!

Oh yeah DUH!

Kite at your own risk and only with proper training.

Keep Launch Areas Clear -
--Park away from beach
--Secure your kite and lines when not riding.
--Always use a kite leash

Launch and Land Kites Safely -
--Stay clear of others on the beach.
--Assist incoming riders land their kites
--Give right-of-way to launching or landing riders
--Only allow experienced riders launch kites
--Launch and clear the beach as quickly as possible
--Stay 200' from shore while riding.

Ride Safely -
--Helmet and flotation devices recommended for all riders
--Always obey right of way rules for kiting
--Do not perform or land tricks within 200' of shore.

Seem reasonable? Seems to me we should just adopt the sign I posted as picture of earlier in the thread.

familiarize yourself with the launch area and potential hazards BEFORE launching

Tom.. didnt see that sign earlier .. or maybe this thread is too long and I've just forgotten..

but ... that about nails every topic I think it should. Maybe that should be our basis for a starting point and edit accordingly..

Customize for Skyway and Backside Skyway (could list some known hazzards and maybe a small map of the launch)

And.. the only reason I didnt put an exact # for how far to keep distance to the beach is that sometimes when the beach is clear, its probably OK for a rider to come up for a shoreline tack.. We have to assume that everyone will use their best judgment. Putting an actual number and it seems to me to become a "rule" as opposed to a safety "guideline".. maybe I am just over thinking it .. :)

This probably falls right into the counter-point to all of this and that is "who the hell has the right to tell me what I can and cant do?".. reasonable question to ask considering this is considered and hyped to be a sport that is all about the individual and limitless boundaries and freeriding and soul searching and all that other crap. :)

Easy to find valid arguments on both sides.

I just see that fine line between what is a positive way to having people follow the guidelines and what is a negative way in having to tell riders what to they have to do. My vote is for trying to do this in a positive way and if that does not work out.. we might need to get nasty.
:P

when is that next meeting????

Well, basically however it gets worded is fine with me as long as it ends up on a sign :)

I really don't think enforcing will be much of a problem. Just like asking someone to roll up their lines or secure their kite while their kite is on the beach... if asked nicely most people will do it out of respect for everyone else and more importantly, not to look like a fool when something goes wrong.

The after meeting at Triton House

Bump;)