Self Regulation at Ft. Desoto
 

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"Registration with Pinellas County
Signed waiver relieves Pinellas Co./Ft. Desoto of any liability"

This doesn't sound like self regulation to me.

I don't think we want to approach the county with this, it could screw us in the end.

My opinion

Paul

i like thoes ideas...
That would solve our problem.. but i don't think everyone will agree with it.
I think we've mentioned something similar before, and no one liked it.

but i'm definitly 100% for them.

Man...I hope a 15m doesn't crash on me during my lesson. lol Damn noobs. ;) On another note...I think a good set of rules, that provided some sort of regulation within the kiting community, would be a good idea. I may be a new guy, but from what I've seen this sport can get VERY dangerous.

Rule 1 kite leash not an option must be worn at all times.
Consiquence cut lines
Rule 2 Stupidity not tolerated, i.e. Friends teaching friends, teaching to close to shore, newbie launching up wind of experienced riders and going down wind right through them.
Consiquence cut lines
Rule 3 no crashing kite on shawn due to stupidity
Consiquence board off to bitch slap
Perfect ridding at eb Pricless

But now on a more serious note i have seen a lot of bull shit and kooks in hatteras. Think its bad in tampa go to kite point on a weekend aka kook hole. I saw a guy let go of his kite without a leash and it wrapped around another kite and almost drug the into highway 12.

We need some type of rules. I dont think registering with the county is the smartest idea because it will be more a hassel for them than anything. But self regulation and asking for a sign on the west side of the road displaying kiting rules is not a bad idea. If its on the west side of the road it should not affect launching and landing. I think some of the rules should be

1) kite leash at all times no excuse
2) no teaching from shore (its already illegal to teach at eb per the taking money for a service at a county park law)
3) no standing on beach with kite in the air RIDE OR LAND
4) Launch un-hooked
5) launch kite pointed at water
Fill in as necessary

The **** with that shit.

I'm fully capable of meeting all of those requirements, but in no way am I going to even try to if they are implemented.

I stay out of everyone's way, others just need to learn the same. Steve was downwind teaching and I'd walk through the grass out of his way the best that I could. I was underpowered a little later on so I had no choice but to walk upwind through that area a few times.

People need to learn not to sit on the beach with their kite straight overhead. Some guy was waiting for someone to land his kite, I walked about 15' away from him and he flew his kite almost directly into mine, and mine was at about 11oclock over on the water side. The guy was sitting and bitching about someone sitting on a truck not landing his kite even though he patted his head.

Who was it sitting on the truck? My friend, whom doesn't kite at all and doesn't know what the hell patting your head means. I tell the guy after just walking upwind of him "That guy doesn't kite, he doesn't know how to land a kite." What kind of response do I get? "Well he needs to learn!"
Well you need to learn to put your kite low moron, not fly it RIGHT into the path of mine...

Make sure when you launch your kite, you're ready to go. Don't sit there looking like you're ready to launch waiting for a while with your lines up in the way. Once your kite is launched, HEAD OUT! Don't sit on shore blabbing with your friends about your new board or whatever. If you're going to talk, land your kite and wind up the lines. Make kiting a little bit easier for all of us.

I set my kite up, launch and am immediatly out on the water. If I have my kite up in the air and I'm not riding, I'm WELL out of the way of people launching. Hence why I tend to park farther away from other people and am usually by myself or have one person with me to launch for me.

Less jibba jabba, more kiting.

PS: Downwind=kite low
Upwind=kite high.

why launch un-hooked?? I fly bows, and launch hooked in everytime.




only problem i had was people not looking behind them before they turn around and almost running into me.

I didn't see any other incidents, I was to focused on riding.

this has come up before.. i think Scott or others could probably go into more detail..

here's the thing tho..

if the county was involved in anyway and if something did occur wouldnt they then be responsible and liable?

its been said last season over and over again..

EVERYONE SHOULD START SAVING THEIR MONEY TO BUY A BOAT...

its the only way to be sure you'll have access to a launch site.

:shock:

just so everyones aware, it is not your job to look behind when you decide to change directions (its a really good idea though) the person being ovetaken has the right of way, not the overtaker, so if your coming close behind someone you need to anticipate that at some point they are going to change direction and you need to be out of there way,
correct me if im wrong...

i think you are correct danny per the "by the book" right of way rules.. but on a very very crowded kite beach riders ABSOLUTELY MUST assume that someone is behind them and ensure all is clear to turn. what if the rider behind crashed and is unable to give right of way.. at that point HE is to be given right of way due to the fact that he is at a standstill and has very limited ability to clear way.

i try to stay far enough behind someone so that i can veer off if they turn unexpectantly ..

also I look EVERYTIME i turn..

it should be a natural habit, just like changing lanes in a car.. glance back.. coast is clear.. make your turn.. everyone has fun..

turn w/o looking, tangle a line, does not matter at that moment who is too blame cuz you are both f**ked.

....................

Ok, now I see that the insurance is for the instructors. Agreed.

I think Shawn's 5 rules are enough, even though a lot of people will argue the unhooked launching rule (yeah, I know Shawn, that rule is big in OBX because of what happened there on a hooked launch several years ago, I think to J.T.). Keep it simple. We've been over and over the pros and cons of getting the government entangled in this before and I remain opposed to it.

Self-regulation is the key. There is a big local scene here and it seems like whenever it is windy there are 10+ people around that I know. When a beginner or a visitor from out of town starts to do kooky shit at one of our few spots, we need to talk to that person and let him or her know that the conduct is not acceptable. If it continues despite all heroic efforts, get some back-up and cut their lines. If we stick together as a group on this, it should work.

I think that self-regulation can be hard to do because people typically don't like confrontation. It's easier to pass the buck and ask somebody else to regulate our conduct when a few of us are stepping out of line. It takes some bravery and conviction to tell another kiter that he or she is making bad decisions that are bad for all of us.

Cutting someone's lines is a drastic remedy and should not be done without some serious thought and unless all other approaches fail. Still, it is what it is. You take a drunk's car keys away. You take a punk's kite lines away. The old schoolers have been using this method in severe situations for years and it is a kiteboarding custom to deal with kookiness that way. A noob hitting someone with a 15m kite is enough, in my mind, particularly with having an attitude afterward, to merit at least a threat of same should the noob refuse to pack it up.

Finally, let me note that the persons that I perceive to be dangerous to our access are typically beginning kiters who don't know any better, visitors from out of town who don't care about access here, or a combination of both. The beginners will likely want to fit in around here and earn their spots in the lineup, and it is in our interest to help them to become solid members of the local scene. The visitors from out of town who are reckless because of apathy to our scene will likely be hesitant to take on 15 local kiters. Either way, peer pressure (the good kind) should work wonders.

Josh I agree that bow kite users should launch hooked in. Danny right of way rules state that a rider with right hand forward has righ of way so if the ridder turning around has left hand forward or is downwind of the other rider than the rider has right of way no matter what. Also it says in sailng right of way that you should avoid collision at all times no matter what. So Yes it is your responsibility to look behind you. I know were all guilty of not doing it even me. But that is the right of way rules regarding that.

Steve- I think you have some good ideas, but i also think you are getting a little ahead of yourself on some of this. I will tell anyone and everyone that I am a certified "USA Waterski" waterski and wakeboard coach. I am proud of it and the training that i went thru, as well as the instruction I can provide. USA Waterski is the governing body of skiing. In order to become a member, you simply pay dues, register, and get a card in the mail. This membership provides accident insurance in any "sanctioned" events, as well as other benefits.(for more details visit www.usawaterski.org) At any tournaments, competitors must sign waivers much like the Tampa Bay Kitemasters waivers for each event, as well as prove USA Waterski Membership. That sport has been around for a very long time, and has gone thru several programs to reach their current status. Yes, it’s a much different sport, but they also went thru a lot of grassroots recruiting and development and could be a great jumping off point for a similar organization for kiters.

Now if I choose to go out on the boat waterskiing on my local lake, I cannot assume that every other boat driver on the water is certified or that they even know how to drive a boat, nor can I or should I. I can only assume responsibility for myself and I need to be aware of my surroundings at all times. Nowhere does it state in the worldwide sport of waterskiing that you can't come ski on this public lake if you're not certified. Sure, you can't compete in my event if you're not certified, but we can't control everyone and quite frankly its not "our beach" (although sometimes it feels that way).

A state park with a public beach is a place for people to come and do their own thing. Unfortunately that involves stupid tourists and non-locals who aren't familiar, putting us all at risk. We need to do what we can to "self-regulate", and be approachable enough to offer advice about the launch sites to people we don't recognize. I have seen Scott approach a new rider at the Skyway...step into the water and give him some advice about safety issues and make the decision that either the kite needs to be brought down and the rider needs some lessons, or if he simply needs to be pointed towards an area with less hazards. He did not need to cut the kid's lines or threaten him, but he got his point across and now the guy knows.

I think a sign at the beach with a "kite at your own risk" and a few general rules is a great idea, and would be very easy to implement. I don't think that you are going to be able to require me to get a level 3 IKO/PASA card to fly my kite at East Beach. There will be time between my lessons with instructors and when I reach level 3. I will not be paying 60-100 dollars per hour so an instructor can watch me practice body dragging upwind or relaunching my kite. I believe everyone should go thru lessons to learn the self-rescue, safety systems of the kites and information about how to read weather, hazards, etc.

Everyone should be STRONGLY encouraged to take lessons. I just don't think that at this point in time, you can stop me, or anyone else from launching at East Beach without my official Level 3 card. (however, I do think something like that could DEFINITELY be implemented in an event... especially a 25 mile race)”

I just wanted to bring some perspective from another sport that has resulted in many deaths and injuries, but is governed well now and has set itself up properly
8)

..........

If you guys are talking about certifying regular riders as opposed to instructors, that's bullshit.

I have no certification of ANY sort and I haven't caused problems. And I don't see myself getting any certification ever.

I hear you man.. and i also am of the attitude that "its others causing the problem.." ..

BUT.

if we self regulated that you must have a cert card to kite in certain areas (even tho it might not be anything that could really be enforced) it carries with it some weight when talking to a newbie who is launching his kite..

"Do you have your certification to ride here??"

"Umm.. certification??"

"Yes.. you MUST have your certification to ride here..." etc.. etc..

might work for some.. might not for others..

I dont know.. seems like we need some way to sound official when talking to a new rider about responsibility and keeping the beaches safe.

then again.. i hit the beach.. i rig and i get the F*CK out on the water and dont come back into until i am ready to leave.

We have already been kicked out of other state parks for not dealing with issues. If there is a problem, it would be good to plan to tackle it in the most effective way feasible.

What Steve described is an approach being used or considered for other designated launches with existing problems. These launches are on both private and public property. In time, as access is threatened in other areas, this approach may expand, ideally based upon need.

Is it right for Ft. Desoto? That is up to you to decide or more likely leaders among you. Building consensus is important as is action, when and where it is needed. Good luck, you guys have a great thing in Desoto, it is worth working to maintain access.

An article largely from a Park Manager's perspective appears in "Parks and Recreation" at:
http://www.fksa.org/viewforum.php?f=95

Protecting our spot is as simple as not ever speaking to any officials. Just make sure accidents don't happen and we'll be fine.

...........

Often, it isn't a single accident or even a series that force us out of a launch. More often than not it is a long series of complaints, observations by authorities of poor rider behavior and concern over possible accidents. These things have closed access many times over in numerous areas. Of course accidents only throw more fuel on the fire burning out our access.

So, in addition to making sure that there are not accidents. You should add some other things to your list, like,

- stopping the cause of repetitious complaints from other users of the park.

- stopping riders from showing issues to the rangers first hand.

- establishing good lines of communication between the authorities and responsible local kiters. If all they hear are complaints and see things that cause them concern, who will speak for us then? I believe there are kiters at Desoto that already maintain healthy lines of communication with the authorities in an effort to preempt problems. You are right in that you don't want to set yourself up for failure or overt regulation out of hand. Merely providing a responsible point of contact for the rangers if they have a beef or just want to compliment something that kiters have done can make a difference. This has been a valuable early warning system MANY times at launches all over like Ft. Lauderdale, Pompano, Key West, Crandon Park, Jupiter, Tybee Island, Oahu, Maui, Hayling, Island, England, West Dennis and many more sites that immediately come to mind.

It isn't all that simple or easy to accomplish. Some ideas are being passed around, I would continue to explore viable options. Doing nothing has been proven already by lost access in other areas, NOT to work.

Just so were clear desoto is a county park not a state park. If it were a state park then you would pay more money to get in.

I don't think we've had complaints from anyone. People love driving by, stopping, and watching us kite.

Only thing I believe we have to worry about are accidents.

one of the best preventative measures we all could do is warn lookilou's that they are in a danger zone.

i dont feel like i should have2 pay to recieve the blessings of pasa iko cia or nambla. Y

you pasa/iko dudes/dudettes are a great asset2 our community, but whats wrong with a day where everyone gets evaluated no charge...that is more palatable IMHO.

why should an obviously squared away rider have 2 pay $20 for someone with half the expierience (just cuz they have taken a course) to give em the nod.

it just doesn't pass the smell test.

also...and i'm guilty of this, but please please stop drinking alcohol at desoto...go2 MAD beach if your into Xrated kiting, drinking is leagal there.

peace

Certification is MORE THAN LIKELY to be required in future organized events. It would not be a bad idea to get certified if you plan on competing. However, if you have had basic instruction and are comfortable on your own, I see no reason for someone to decide to require certification if you are riding for recreation.

Things like large turnouts for pinellas county beach cleanups are a way for the kiting community to show our appreciation for the use of the beaches and keep a positive image in the eyes of rangers, etc.

We don't need to hide from the authorities, but at this point, I don't think we need to ask them to enforce a rule that hasn't even been agreed upon. I think Bryan L's idea of having a good attitude and approaching someone and taking it from there is our best bet right now. Chances are that if its blowin, there will be a large group of "local experienced riders" goin'. As a group, decisions can be made on a case by case basis as to the best way to handle a situation/person if it appears to be a dangerous situation.

hey man.. i do not want to be calling you out on this, but this is really not the attitude that we should be having..

accidents are by definition events that occur without warning, by mistake, etc. you are as prone to this happening as anyone else and dont ever think you are not. equipment failure, unexpected weather changes, injury.. you cant say any and all of this cannot occur..it does and it will..

with experience you greatly lessen the chances for these to occur by recognizing potential problems before they occur. BUT .. look at the number of serious injuries .. most all are experienced riders that got relaxed about safety and thought they could overcome situations where they should have been more cautious.

a new rider is just as dangerous as an experienced rider that thinks he/she is beyond getting caught in a bad situation..

look at the guy w/o a leash on saturday.. he is a great kiter.. his kite got away twice.. flew through the beach with children playing on it..

Can you imagine what could have happened if the bar had caught one of those kids???????

we would lose skyway for sure. absolutely and without question..

my plan is to do what i can to help and keep the beaches as safe as possible and be as responsible of a rider as i can be. i know you (and others) are doing the same.. just need to understand that no one is beyond an accident occuring.

i am not in favor of involving park officials or anything like that w/o some serious discussion by both sides of the table and a VERY clear understanding of what each side would be responsible for.

..........

simple....
if its blowing 25 from the east, we ride at EB

we all basically agree on that
:lol:

I realize I am not there anymore and I have stayed out of this thread (til now). To a large extent it is of less consequence to me now and I am more focussed on protecting areas around here now (pretty easy to do). I also realize how close to impossible consensus is, in some areas, anyway.

I don't know who that "great' kiter is mentioned above, but IMO, he is a crappy rider for jeopardizing your guys spot... twice in one day? whatta joke. Did anyone talk to him? Or is he so "great" he is somehow above the "common sense/courtesy" agreements that most of you indeed agree on (because they are so obvious and common sense oriented, such as use of a leash?)

Getting overly nervous about noobs and ignoring that particular situation (if that's what happened) is way off. I basically agree with Brian is my statement. I am curious how you guys intend to handle (if at all) the above, quoted scenario.

lassing baby.. lassing.

man
we cant even agree on that!!!!!!

Thats right!

If its blowing from the East Then the Skyway REALLY SUCKS!

Stay away from Skyway and goto lassing or EB instead on an easterly!

LOL! :lol:

Certification
 

Well I think it does not hurt at all to get a Certification card. I am a noob, but I want to fit in as much as possible. I have made some great friends and if I have to get a certification card to keep riding then I am in.

Hey Steve,
I was talking to Toby and he said that you could show me what I need to do to get my card. PM me when you get a chance.