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-   -   The Skyway, aka the Highway to Hell (http://www.fksa.org/showthread.php?t=4584)

E-Bone 09-07-2007 11:01 AM

The Skyway, aka the Highway to Hell
 
Reading all the recent comments about the Skyway, I imagine that new or visiting riders around here might get the false impression that the established local crew is just trying to keep the Skyway to itself.

I know I don't care to keep the spot to myself because, given that I can ride upwind at will and I can usually avoid getting blown downwind even if conditions get heavy, I have a ton of space to myself at the Skyway. When it gets crowded on the inside, I tend to go out to the sandbar and ride, well away from everyone, so I can throw some wack moves and drop my kite without getting in everyone's way or putting the kite on the beach.

There is so much space to ride at the Skyway, it is ridiculous, so the riding area itself is not going to be crowded unless everyone wants to ride just off of the beach to show off (which is a waste of time, given that I've never seen anyone get laid because they can throw a lame-ass backroll).

Also, the launch is tight and not recommended for beginners, but I have seen a lot worse. The launch in Cabarete in much worse, with 100 kites on the beach, lines everywhere, horses and dogs running by, chicks in butt floss distracting everybody, the local kids throwing handle passes 10 feet off of the sand, and plenty of fixed objects to get dragged into. So, while the Skyway launch is a negative factor for new riders, I am not sure that it is dispositive on the issue, even though new kiters should always be trending toward wide-open launches.

What is unavoidable at the Skyway, however, is what is downwind, namely rocks, mangroves, bridges, and an interstate highway. Most new riders would not considered launching, in a perfect sideshore breeze, 100 yards directly upwind of a jetty, exposed reef, or some other obvious hazard straight downwind. At the Skyway, however, the same rider might be inclined to go for it, thinking that the launch area itself affords a buffer. Unfortunately, such a conclusion is flawed.

If you get out on an onshore wind at the Skyway and tack upwind, you will find that the distance between the southern and northern ends of the sandy launch is quite short. It takes just several seconds to cover its entire length. After you are outside of that spot, you are directly upwind of rocky shores that are right next to the road. Keep going in either direction and you end up directly upwind of a bridge. Complicating matters, as soon as the launch site is no longer straight downwind, you are in water over your head, so if you put your kite down and you are getting dragged, you are unable to stop by planting your feet on the bottom. Instead, your kite is going to hit a bridge, a seawall, or rocks (if you are lucky and the kite is not in a death spiral 30 feet in the air).

The same analysis applies if the wind comes up and you are unable to hold your position and, at the Skyway, the wind is prone to come up suddenly and with significant force.

Also, when things go bad at the Skyway, your proximity to shore, even if you make a significant effort to tack upwind, will rob you of time to react to emergencies, making it more likely that you will panic when the crap hits the fan.

I was screwing around one day last season well outside the sandbar when I dug the nose of my 118 into a wave and got spun a few times as I wrecked. I got the bar turned around in my hands when this happened without realizing it, so although my kite was doing exactly what I was telling it to do with the bar, I did not realize why the kite was flying backwards all of a sudden. I ended up getting dragged several hundred yards back toward the launch, shitting bricks the entire way, fully lit on a crazed 12m before I was able to see through my panic and reverse the bar in my hands and solve the problem.

Hazards downwind can cause you to freeze, no matter your experience level. When you see that highway looming in the midst of a kitemare, you realize that you are on a Highway to Hell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAg5kTLeMh4

In kiteboarding, it is a great idea to take advantage of wisdom that was paid for with someone else's flesh. Save your body for learning wild tricks and don't trash yourself repeating stupid mistakes that others have already made. Learning anything the hard way in this sport is a waste of time, money, and health.

The bottom line is this--the Skyway is a cool kiteboarding spot that is fully integrated into the fabric of our local scene, but it is hardly the only game in town or even the best spot to ride in terms of conditions and natural beauty. Insisting on riding the Skyway as a beginning rider is like chasing a tattooed, nipple-ringed, whip-wielding heavy metal dominatrix when you are trying to lose your virginity. Yeah, you'll lose your cherry, just not the way you imagined you would.

The Skyway will be waiting for you once you progress to a certain level. Until you get to that level (and your progression should include facing a kitemare or two in safer waters), do yourself a favor and don't set yourself up for a real bad time.

Skyway Scott 09-07-2007 11:25 AM

Good post. I left the Skyway yesterday at 5pm to ride a better spot.
The spot I rode had one other rider (Donna), stronger wind, and was awesome.
I ride there all the time. Nope, if you don't know it... sorry.

The SW is the most over visited spot in our area and I personally will ride there less and less, despite the nickname Rob Hassle gave me 6 years ago, mainly due to crowding and the fact it is often a circus. As E-bone said, it's not exactly the only game in town.
It's my opinion that any level kiter is still going down when another lands on him or jumps right through his kite lines. Not only newbies will get hurt out there this year.

popeye 09-07-2007 11:53 AM

The skyway was entertaining yesterday. Kites banging together in the air, lines crossing, jumpers landing on shore, kites crashing hard on shore (at least 6 times yesterday just while I was there), people jumping on shore 6 feet off the ground and between other kites in the air so they can hi-5 their buddy standing by the cars, kites blowing away into people and cars, some arguments on the beach, etc. Saw all of those things in just 2 hours yesterday. Pretty interesting to just hang back and watch. Guess everyone was just excited to have wind.

You can ride by the sandbar all you want... but when you come in to land watch out...

BigR 09-07-2007 12:25 PM

yep, the carnaval was there yesterday all right, I heard the organ grinder playing......

bryanleighty 09-07-2007 02:02 PM

After yesterday I'm kinda in a "whats the point" mood.

The main message for the Skyway needs to be "no beginners at all". The core group of top riders were jumping all over the place.. just off shore.. on shore.. etc.. kites crashing on the beach line.. on the beach.. etc...

(the one SS kite that ended up on the cars was actually on the beach but just not secured enought for when the winds picked up..)

but that how the skyway has been.. and how its probably going to always be. guys love to stay and jump in that center to south side of the riding area.. I kept up to the northern side between the bridge and beach and rarely had a single kiter around me.

i caught myself jumping too close to shore a couple times.. but i noted my mistake and tried to get back further. I had a number of kiters fail to give me and others right of way as we were prepping to launch.. in fact i had to move my kite as a rider was cruising the beach line as I was about ready to send my kite for a waterstart only to have the guy to a jump-transition directly at me.. i had to swing the kite way out of the way to avoid getting hit.. wind was very light or that might have come to punches.

basically .. the rocks, bridges, interstate, mangroves, cars, etc are not the hazards that inexperienced riders need to worry about. they need to worry about our experienced riders.

two experienced riders crashing into each other or coming very close and they laugh it off... that is completely cool and I see it happen a lot. add an inexperienced rider to the situation and you have a very serious problem.

popeye 09-07-2007 02:25 PM

After yesterday I don't see the point of a sign at all at the skyway. I sort of feel like the sign movement is just a big waste of time altogether.

Maybe some more wind on Sat or Sun :)

Sean B 09-07-2007 02:34 PM

Sliced the leading edge on my 16m early yesterday to some barnacles....I hate light wind. Saw a wipika get shredded too. No mercy!! Unfortunately, my kite was down all day so I saw quite a few things as well. Got to ride late evening though....so not a total waste. :cool:

On another note:
"Juvenile," is all I have to say. Name calling and everything. Not only directed at one individual but at our community here as well. Some people need to grow up. I thought we were all adults here. :rolleyes:

Tom- let's just say, after yesterday's garbage, the "safety movement" will probably not be getting passed around the skyway....for reasons not worth mentioning here.

A-Bomb 09-07-2007 04:40 PM

The light wind always seems to get the best of me too. A couple days ago I went out and cut my foot out there while screwing around in wind that I couldn't even stay up wind in.

Interesting posts... I wasn't able to get into the sign issue recently due to a new baby. I try to keep my kiteboarding as politics free as possible anyway. Sign or not, I do get the feeling that some good may come of all the talk about the Skyway riding spot. It seems like there's a new level awareness, at least when it comes to newbies anyway, that will hopefully keep all our spots a little safer. I've always told, and will continue to tell, people to never ride at the Skyway until you are consistent at going up wind. At least when experienced riders do stupid stuff, they can usually save themselves.

popeye 09-07-2007 06:19 PM

Problem is, the beginners usually emulate what the experienced riders are doing.

A-Bomb 09-07-2007 06:32 PM

True, good point. Yet another reason for us not to get too stupid out there. My first year or two of kiteboarding, before we had crowding issues, I would occasionally jump near shore. After learning my lesson the hard way, more times than I should have, I finally beat it into my head, and my holy wetsuit, that jumping near shore is generally not a good idea.

RKITEKT 09-08-2007 01:44 AM

Yah... what Sean said...
 
I've been reading all these posts and I agree with Sean. JUVENILE!

I don't care to get into the politics and drama with any one of you. I am sure you could fire some ammo back at me if I did get into it. So, with that said, I remain on the outside and wish to stay there. I have had my share of OOOPS and ****UPS! I push it to the EDGE QUITE OFTEN. Sometimes I go over that EDGE and lose it and sometimes lose some flesh. HOWEVER, I know my safety triggers and routines, I know how to be polite to other riders, park my kite high upwind, low down wind and look before turning your kite or jumping. I know all these courtesies that should be MADE RULES. Yet, I get carried away, I get caught up in the madness just like everyone, and suddenly I am the one coming at you with my board pointing at your NUTS!

I've never hurt anyone or crashed anyone else's kite, caused anyone else to crash. I sure have come close a few times, but DAMN if I could count all the times someone ELSE has suddenly put me in danger, then it would be another story! I've been pretty wreckless to my own body and kite, but thats no secret. I got my kite bumped by this asshole's kite and I turned to see who it was and HE FLIPPED ME OFF leaving. I couldn't see who it was, so I turned and chased his ass down FULL POWERED UP! It turned out to be a kitesurfin friend of mine and we laughed it off. LOL

Look, everyone likes to show off right in front of the beach. I have even done so myself. You tend to do that especially when a professional photographer is wanting pics of you, and Billy Parker shows up. Egos get the best of some riders! I laugh it off. After all this recent madness though, **** THE PHOTOS and SHOWING OFF, I AM STAYING UP WIND OF ALL OF YOU! HAHA

DID YOU ALL KNOW THERE IS A NICE LITTLE TIKI HUT SERVING MARGARITAS ABOUT A MILE OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BAY PAST THE SANDBAR? YUP... MERMAIDS SERVING THE SHIT... STRAIGHT UP!

Anyway, I actually have something important to say, but I will post it in a new post called "SKY WAY Wind Currents Water Currents"

~See you all at the highway to hell.

Christopher aka RKITEKT aka Captain America aka Flash aka CrazyChris

popeye 09-08-2007 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKITEKT (Post 22786)
I have had my share of OOOPS and ****UPS! I push it to the EDGE QUITE OFTEN. Sometimes I go over that EDGE and lose it and sometimes lose some flesh. I get carried away, I get caught up in the madness just like everyone, and suddenly I am the one coming at you with my board pointing at your NUTS!

I've never hurt anyone or crashed anyone else's kite, caused anyone else to crash. I sure have come close a few times, but DAMN if I could count all the times someone ELSE has suddenly put me in danger, then it would be another story!

Look, everyone likes to show off right in front of the beach. I have even done so myself. You tend to do that especially when a professional photographer is wanting pics of you,


Sounds like you are one of those people you are complaining about!

There is no excuse for "almost taking someone out" because you were showing off near shore for a camera. That's complete B.S. no matter who it is.

Professional photographers have telephoto lenses. You don't have to be on shore for them to frame you up.

Glad to hear you are going to try not to do it anymore... that's one less person in the cluster f#$.

BTW, the juvenile statment was was unrelated to this thread.. it was about something which happened on the beach.

RKITEKT 09-08-2007 11:44 AM

Hmmm
 
If you are a complete SAINT on your board 100% of the time, then I do ACTUALLY RESPECT YOUR COMMENT towards me. I appreciate your input, but I've read all the threads, and I simply agree with Sean! Just go back and read for about 3 weeks... you will get a feel of who is running their mouth in EGO and who is trying to help. Some people just like to bitch and complain... don't actually try to find the problems and come up with solutions. Some people didn't get enough of JR. HIGH.

I didn't come on here at 3 am to bitch and complain.... I came on here to put my two cents in, acknowledge the problems at SW and try to find solutions. I have no REGRETS admitting that I have screwed up showing off too! I am human. Crucify me if you will, but be prepared to go out the same way.You show me someone who hasn't and then change your attitude, and then maybe we can all get along and practice boading more safely at the BRIDGE.

Moral of the story: go up wind far enough at SW bridge if you are going to be jumping and doing wild tricks. I will continue to embed this into my brain... and tell others who are just learning or just don't get it yet.

Go do some Yoga or something...Peace out!

popeye 09-08-2007 12:24 PM

Quote:

If you are a complete SAINT on your board 100% of the time, then I do ACTUALLY RESPECT YOUR COMMENT towards me. I appreciate your input, but I've read all the threads, and I simply agree with Sean! Just go back and read for about 3 weeks... you will get a feel of who is running their mouth in EGO and who is trying to help. Some people just like to bitch and complain... don't actually try to find the problems and come up with solutions. Some people didn't get enough of JR. HIGH.
OHHH... yeah I know what you are talking about now... Yeah you're right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RKITEKT (Post 22796)

Moral of the story: go up wind far enough at SW bridge if you are going to be jumping and doing wild tricks. I will continue to embed this into my brain... and tell others who are just learning or just don't get it yet.

I hear this more often than I see it.

RKITEKT 09-08-2007 01:09 PM

yah yah yah... Guess I could have just not said a word... ;-)

stormatzio 09-09-2007 12:35 AM

You think it's crazy at the Skyway, wait until it blows out of the south or west...
 
So this is about my second post ever but I actually have my two cents to add. I went to the Skyway on Thursday and saw a whole bunch of people I have never seen before trying to ride in 10-12Kts of winds. There were a lot of fluttering kites hanging straight in the air. Probably 2 or 3 guys barely staying up wind. It was just looking ugly. I decided not to tempt fate and I guess I missed a pretty good late session.

So here it is.... The moment we have all dreaded...... People, lots and lots of people. The wind sucked the other day and the beach was packed. Gone are the days of hanging out and knowing everyone in the water and how they ride. Who you should stay away from and who is a good rider.

I see all of these posts about the skyway not being a beginner launch. My take is that the skyway is about the safest launch around. East Beach - slippery as hell most of the time, full of sightseers, palm trees, and road signs. Sure the water is shallow, but there is no really good bailout point other then the beach. Remember the guy who was dragged into the minivan last year...... Gulf - Newbies riding surf with a beach full of tourist and gusty conditions... I can't wait to read the post about that. Westside of Skyway - Oyster bars, boat channel, ankle deep water at low tide, big submerged pipe we have all dinged our boards on, slippery as hell muddy bottom, launch about the size of a postage stamp. How many people are we going to be cleaning out of the trees this year? I could go on and on, Southside of Skyway, Lassen, etc. We all learned in these spots when there were 20 of us total, Dakota was a puppy, and the one pump was the trickest thing on the market.

I haven't thought of an answer to this problem. I know it's not going to get any better with crowds and people are not going to stop wanting to learn. The summer is almost over and the wind is only a few weeks away, no matter what happens, I can't wait for the season to get going.

popeye 09-09-2007 08:31 AM

I have one word to describe it: carnage

It's going to be an interesting season!

RKITEKT 09-09-2007 11:19 PM

one word
 
I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh... "one word: carnage"

Skyway Scott 09-10-2007 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kite-4-life (Post 22843)
I hate to be the one to ask, but what happened to everyone working together to create a sign/banding system to try to manage the rapid growth?

I think reality happened and many of us witnessed it.

Wolfie 09-10-2007 07:37 AM

Well...I still haven't given up, but I don't know how much I can do alone. I will try to keep talking to those who will listen. I'm sure no one wants to be the one to get us banned from SW. I'm going to try to approach those experienced riders who do tricks recklessly close to the beach and see if they will just try to go a little further out. It is those of us who have ridden for awhile whom all the new people are emulating.
I'm sure I will not be the coolest one out there...I'm sure few will listen straight out. But I feel I have to do my best. I'm sure if/when we do get banned from SW, at least people will take it more seriously. I bet we will be on an even shorter rope at Lassing if everyone has to show up there.

toby wilson 09-10-2007 08:08 AM

Wolfie, Kite-4-Life...I'm with you. I love how people get on here and preach about whatever it is they feel is the bitch of the week. Then the next week they contradict themselves. You would think that the recent events at the Skyway would have made everyone more eager to get at least some informational signs up for everyone to go by. What I am trying to get across is if you don't mean it, don't post it.

Lets stick to our original objective(s) and get something constructive done in the way of making our launches as safe as possible for the public and our community of kiters...in a POSITIVE way.

bryanleighty 09-10-2007 08:20 AM

Its taken only 1 week of semi-ridable wind for the smack talk BS crap to creep back on the forum. ugh.

From the beginning my initial concern was beginners at the Skyway launches.

The sign/rules/guidelines got thrown into the mix and while I think its still a great thing for us to have it was not my orignial concern.

Regarding some sort of ID, color tag, harness clip, etc.. I still would be willing to put effort into getting this done but only if its something that the local instructors are going to be 100% behind. Its their call. If even one of them is against it, then another system needs to be in place.

My vote is for whatever system our main local instructors come up with to keep the beaches as safe as possible. I will volunteer some hours to help out and thats all i can do. I think the topic has been talked through more than enough. It really has to fall back on the instructors to come together and get something in place. They are the only ones that have the ears of nearly every single new rider in our area. They have to be the ones to push whatever system they decide on.

I would say to start as simple as possible to see if it catches on.

popeye 09-10-2007 09:23 AM

Well, we spent a lot of time on this sign idea ... what 6 or 8 of us? We hashed out the sign, got approval from the rangers, got funded by both Rick and kite4life, even after some of the early participants disappeared from the thread entirely.

Now all we have to do is make the sign so the other 100 intermediate-advanced riders can safely ignore it...

:rolleyes:

inferno 09-10-2007 10:05 AM

i think a lot of our ideas are good ones, but will not be super easy to get implemented and will take some time.... in light of this i was trying to come up with a simple quick solution.....
my thoughts.....
to main riding areas of concern
-SW (N, NE, or E) and EB (E,SE, or S)
some of the main concerns
-to much congestion while trying to lauch and land
-riding/performing tricks to close to shore
.....
a simple and quick remedy
collect a small amount of donations and purchase a dozen or so of the orange bouys with some sort of an anchor, hand them out to whomever is at the riding spots the most and ask them to just throw them out a 150ft or so when they arrive on a windy day (a day that lots of people will be riding)

then every one will see them and its pretty clear that its a no ride/trick zone, and most people arent going to get mad at you for saying, "excuse me, if you dont mind can you try your best to stay outside of the safety zone, thanx"

atleast you wont have people who respond, i didnt see a sign or people who forget to bring there tag, or those who go out and buy there own tag....

not to mention, i know i jump to close to shore a lot :(, but im not always fully aware that im doing it, im just having fun... the bright orange buoys would be a good reminder for people like me :)

my, hopefully helpful, two cents

Danimal8199 09-10-2007 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stormatzio (Post 22807)
So this is about my second post ever...

I have nothing to say about this topic so I will just say that stormatzios profile actually says he has posted 4 times. Now his credibility is in question!:)

bryanleighty 09-10-2007 10:16 AM

ye of little faith.

hehe..


I was going to post more about this but I am done with this conversation.

I volunteer to help any instructor or whomever to get the tags and/or signs going. I just dont want to be caught up in defending why I think its a good idea or at least a positive start.

I will always be someone that will help others that look like they need help.. we should all be committed to doing that. New riders just want to share in the same thrill that we are all addicted to.. we all did some dumb ass stuff in our learning phases too..

Skyway Scott 09-10-2007 12:02 PM

Steve, I did originally have a more severe post, I deleted it. Why? I don't like making negative posts in general, especially if I feel they are in total vain. Some people love to slant a negative post into a desire to watch Days of Our Lives and then make accusations safely from behind their keyboard. I felt the original post was spot on, but also made in vain.

Keeping it positive is becoming more difficult for me the last few days.
It seemed we were going somewhere with a couple safety meetings and the sign idea. This is a very off the wall example, but did you know if a man is cheated on, he is 70% likely to forgive if he just hears about it, and only 5% likely if he actually sees it with his own eyes? So, if you are reading this and thinking "dude chill.. or stay positive dude" or similar, I think I can relate. But try saying it after you realize how many kites have gone in the road in the last 3 weeks compounded with seeing Circus McGircus live on two occasions.

I hear a rush to get the sign at the SW. Well, we laid out a series of stuff, got clearance at EB... now what? Did someone run with it? That'd be great if so.
A sign can't hurt, I imagine.
But, is the sign a magic sign? In other words, does it possess Jeidi powers that we as a group lack when we talk to people and try to stop them from doing stuff like jumping/riding very close to shore?
This rush to get the sign and tags mentality, when the problem is here now is like rushing to put up "don't smoke at the gas pump" signs when the station is on fire. Once the sign is up, if most people "continue to smoke" sticking with the analogy, then what? Point to it, forcefully! (?)
Most of the monkey business I have seen recently isn't from newbies, it's from veterans who already know the hazards of their riding behaviors. I am not against a sign, but I think we are focusing on newbies, tags, cones, etc... all while turning a blind eye (I am too) to the more urgent safety issues at the SW.

Bob, Tom and I confronted (talked to nicely) some riders at PAG a while back. I don't want to belabor that scenario, my reason for raising it is that we did something. We took action.
With or without a sign, it's going to come down to the same thing for behaviors to change (if possible) at the SW.

The thing is, these are our long time friends out there that we have to confront. Not dragons we can kill with swords, not occasional out of town kooks we tell to leave or have their ass kicked or even the over- demonized beginner. Nope, it's some of our vet riders and a couple are even instructors. That makes it tricky.
Confrontation is always easier (at least for me) when I feel it is with - "them... the bad guy.. similar". This is with friends.
We all know that they know that we know.... and we know the outcome of the "hey man, can you please" conversation before we even have the conversation. No veteran rider out there is in the dark over our concerns or unaware that we wish they would stay clear of shore, etc.
Is there something we can do or say to them? I have already tried talking to most of them on numerous occasions over the years. I obviously am saying the wrong thing.
Maybe someone else is better at phrasing things.

That's why I didn't even try to initiate more conversations the last few days.

Steve made a good point about the SILENT majority. It is very disheartening to me to think about it. We have so many guys that want to be safe and do the right thing. But how many posts do we have on here about "Wow... how can I help?". How many people? Five, eight, maybe. And I know this, at least 50 read the forum and are members. It's not for lack of knowing about the forum, its a true lack of participation that we have a silent majority. More importantly, the number is even smaller "in real life" when at the SW.


Some of us have tried in various ways in the past, some for a long time, to contribute to safety and related agendas. In my mind, that is so much more than so many who have never tried at all. If I or someone else decides to delete a post or not get involved in something, keep that in mind, please. It doesn't do much good to kick someone in the shins that has stepped up in the past. It doesn't encourage others to help in the future. I actually strongly believe that this is the primary reason people don't speak out on this forum is ALL the heat they have seen others catch for showing concern or expressing ideas in the past. It's a lot easier just stay "out of the madness" and not get involved.

I hope things change for the positive in the future, because frankly, they have to if we don't want to lose the SW. Let's just not put too much faith in inanimate objects is one of my points. The other is that we are talking about our core as well as new riders, in my opinion, and the sooner we acknowledge that, the better. I still have zero idea how you change the core's attitude though, and that's why we need a new voice(S) in that department.

popeye 09-10-2007 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyway Scott (Post 22875)
Steve, I did originally have a more severe post, I deleted it. Why? I don't like making negative posts in general, especially if I feel they are in total vain. Some people love to slant a negative post into a desire to watch Days of Our Lives and then make accusations safely from behind their keyboard. I felt the original post was spot on, but also made in vain.

Keeping it positive is becoming more difficult for me the last few days.
It seemed we were going somewhere with a couple safety meetings and the sign idea. This is a very off the wall example, but did you know if a man is cheated on, he is 70% likely to forgive if he just hears about it, and only 5% likely if he actually sees it with his own eyes? So, if you are reading this and thinking "dude chill.. or stay positive dude" or similar, I think I can relate. But try saying it after you realize how many kites have gone in the road in the last 3 weeks compounded with seeing Circus McGircus live on two occasions.

I hear a rush to get the sign at the SW. Well, we laid out a series of stuff, got clearance at EB... now what? Did someone run with it? That'd be great if so.
A sign can't hurt, I imagine.
But, is the sign a magic sign? In other words, does it possess Jeidi powers that we as a group lack when we talk to people and try to stop them from doing stuff like jumping/riding very close to shore?
This rush to get the sign and tags mentality, when the problem is here now is like rushing to put up "don't smoke at the gas pump" signs when the station is on fire. Once the sign is up, if most people "continue to smoke" sticking with the analogy, then what? Point to it, forcefully! (?)
Most of the monkey business I have seen recently isn't from newbies, it's from veterans who already know the hazards of their riding behaviors. I am not against a sign, but I think we are focusing on newbies, tags, cones, etc... all while turning a blind eye (I am too) to the more urgent safety issues at the SW.

Bob, Tom and I confronted (talked to nicely) some riders at PAG a while back. I don't want to belabor that scenario, my reason for raising it is that we did something. We took action.
With or without a sign, it's going to come down to the same thing for behaviors to change (if possible) at the SW.

The thing is, these are our long time friends out there that we have to confront. Not dragons we can kill with swords, not occasional out of town kooks we tell to leave or have their ass kicked or even the over- demonized beginner. Nope, it's some of our vet riders and a couple are even instructors. That makes it tricky.
Confrontation is always easier (at least for me) when I feel it is with - "them... the bad guy.. similar". This is with friends.
We all know that they know that we know.... and we know the outcome of the "hey man, can you please" conversation before we even have the conversation. No veteran rider out there is in the dark over our concerns or unaware that we wish they would stay clear of shore, etc.
Is there something we can do or say to them? I have already tried talking to most of them on numerous occasions over the years. I obviously am saying the wrong thing.
Maybe someone else is better at phrasing things.

That's why I didn't even try to initiate more conversations the last few days.

Steve made a good point about the SILENT majority. It is very disheartening to me to think about it. We have so many guys that want to be safe and do the right thing. But how many posts do we have on here about "Wow... how can I help?". How many people? Five, eight, maybe. And I know this, at least 50 read the forum and are members. It's not for lack of knowing about the forum, its a true lack of participation that we have a silent majority. More importantly, the number is even smaller "in real life" when at the SW.


Some of us have tried in various ways in the past, some for a long time, to contribute to safety and related agendas. In my mind, that is so much more than so many who have never tried at all. If I or someone else decides to delete a post or not get involved in something, keep that in mind, please. It doesn't do much good to kick someone in the shins that has stepped up in the past. It doesn't encourage others to help in the future. I actually strongly believe that this is the primary reason people don't speak out on this forum is ALL the heat they have seen others catch for showing concern or expressing ideas in the past. It's a lot easier just stay "out of the madness" and not get involved.

I hope things change for the positive in the future, because frankly, they have to if we don't want to lose the SW. Let's just not put too much faith in inanimate objects is one of my points. The other is that we are talking about our core as well as new riders, in my opinion, and the sooner we acknowledge that, the better. I still have zero idea how you change the core's attitude though, and that's why we need a new voice(S) in that department.

I'm gonna make you keep it :)

Wolfie 09-10-2007 02:15 PM

I think all we can do is keep a constant and gentle pressure in the direction of cleaning up some of the riding at SW. We should all try to discuss dangerous riding with anybody when we see it. If the person is unwilling to change their practices, so be it. The worst that can happen is the same as if we do nothing. I really don't think being reminded that something is dangerous and may get us banned should be taken confrontational. The truth being told, I don't think there is one of us out there that has not showboated near shore. It is instinctual....but with a slow, constant push anything is possible. I'm looking into sign prices today.

Wolfie 09-10-2007 03:20 PM

FYI-
Sign Prices for an outside 18"x24" (like the real estate open house signs). This maybe bigger than we need.

Just text- $40.95

With a map/graffics $66.00

With a Y-Frame to hold up add $17.50

popeye 09-10-2007 03:28 PM

RickI offered $100 and that covers two signs.

Wolfie 09-10-2007 08:16 PM

Who has the last copy of what we came up with. I will e-mail it to a few sign companies and see what would be best $-wise. I will also help with the idea to sink a few bouys to mark off the no jump/trick area at SW. How far out should they be?

Steve-O 09-10-2007 09:05 PM

Scott, very good perspective on the current situation.

Some thoughts.

1. We need to continue this effort and not give up until we succeed with these ideas that we all seem to agree on.

2. Wolfie's idea with the bouy's is something I was discussing last week with Craig Whiteleather, a very safe rider. I don't see why we couldn't permanently put some bouys at both Skyway and East beach to allow for a safe buffer zone for outgoing riders and to remind folks to stay clear of the beach. Are there laws against having them in place on a permanent basis? Anyone?

3. It sounds like the signs are close to some completion. Let's get it done. Count WSW in for $100 towards signs.

4. As far as tagging goes, Triton and Watersports West have the most amount of instructors in the bay area. If we could put our resources together and agree on a tagging system hopefully other instructors/schools in the bay area will follow our lead. I will spearhead this with Matt.

Signs could be in place in less than a month as well as marker bouys.

Tagging could take a bit more time and have the most issues to deal with, but if we don't try, we will never know.

Let me know what you all think

RKITEKT 09-11-2007 12:11 AM

we can control where the parking occurs as well (push it back and create barriers). Randomly parked cars are a huge hazard. Is is crazy to think about placing nets between parking and beach where kiters are setting up? You know, Like the ones they put around baseball parks, just not so high? Something to catch a kiter out of control. Obviously these things take work and money... I am just throwing out crazy ideas...

RKITEKT 09-11-2007 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kite-4-life (Post 22919)
Scott, I agree on your posts completely.
the original (missing)posts werent negative at all, they were facts. I was a little shocked to read something, grab a cup of coffee, and have it gone when I get back, thats all!
My solution to getting the tricksters off the beach?
Build a slider, put it on the sandbar.

One of the photographers who has been taking photos of us recently offered to build a slider... just let him know what to make and he will make it. That is what he said...

I think its a good idea... build a slider way out there! And put "no jump - zone bouys" up. Can't we hit up some of the local marine shops and kite shops to donate for the cause?

Sam 09-11-2007 12:26 AM

would bouys really make it safer? It would seem that a bouy could tangle with downed kitelines and create a different set of hazards...

jim 09-11-2007 05:56 AM

I think Sam has a point. With the density of people at SW buoys will be another hazard to tangle with in an already small area.

bryanleighty 09-11-2007 06:43 AM

yes they could... I've seen kites tangled in the buoys on the gulf.. not a pretty sight.

then again.. there are crab traps all around at the skyway launches .. rare for an issue to occur.. but it has happened..

popeye 09-11-2007 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kite-4-life (Post 22919)
My solution to getting the tricksters off the beach?
Build a slider, put it on the sandbar.

This really is a funny idea and it would probably work. At least it'll keep the injuries on the sand bar.

Was it Mike who knocked out his front teeth on the slider earlier this year?

Ouch!

popeye 09-11-2007 08:21 AM

I think a few simple orange floats with 5lb SOFT dive weights would work fine and wouldn't be much of a hazard.


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