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-   -   anyone see.. (http://www.fksa.org/showthread.php?t=7040)

Skyway Scott 08-20-2008 04:19 PM

http://www.tbka.org/TBKAWiki/index.p...8Front_Side.29

Myself and SteveS put this up months ago. If you would like to add to it Steve-O, TBKA was created for that purpose and it was made abundantly clear to yourself and others that contributions would be appreciated.

In terms of the Skyway. When I ride there, I follow my own advice and get well offshore and stay there, especially on days where it might pick up quickly. People who ride there often see this on a regular basis.
Despite my personal choices, several riders still choose to ride close to shore and do whatever. They always have and always will. To my knowledge, I am not responsible for their behavior.

That brings me back to my prior post about realm of influence (Stephen Covey 101). If you are on the hunt for someone to point a finger at (and it sure seems like it to me), then start looking closer to home at your sponsored riders and instructors. You actually have influence over them. You have basically none over most others (just like I don't).
The best you can do is to get all your sponsored guys and instructors to ride like great role models who practice what you preach. That is the best way for you to positively affect our community.

Unimog Bob 08-20-2008 06:07 PM

Steve-O has always been a good guy to ride with and every time I've seen him ride he sets a good example using best safety practices and acting as a good role model. At the launch he is always friendly helpful and generous with his time and equipment. Scott does make a good point about controlling and influencing what you can. As our largest local retailer of kiting equipment WSW can influence rider behavior through its policies and sponsorships.If I walked into WSW as a total newbie at what point will they sell me a full quiver of gear kites and boards? If I sit through the very good safety lecture and ground orientation can I then buy a whole Butt load of Cab, Nobile, jimmy Lewis stuff and hit the beach. It is a tough nut for any retailer trying to pay the rent and keep the lights on. It is also hypocritical to point a finger at private individuals who a doing all they can to promote safety and preserve access, when you represent a business that has to choose profits over principals.

On a much more important note I got to ride today near Upham the wind was a bit gusty and the waves were a bit mushy, but all in all a great safe session with good friends.

Bob

inferno 08-20-2008 06:50 PM

i had a great afternon sesh at honeymoon.... solid 18 building to about 24
with really nice waves on the outer sandbar.....
man those 07 fuels can jump :)

Skyway Scott 08-20-2008 07:06 PM

Yeah, the beach rocked today.
Thanks for the loaner O.R. kite, Bayflite.

Steve-O 08-20-2008 09:09 PM

I assure you that I am not trying to single out anyone or trying to make anyone look bad. I am just asking the question and discussing philosophy. Severe accidents should open up some healthy conversation regarding riding practice.

I think Scott's philosophy is the best. No matter where you are riding, ride way upwind to give you time to react when shit hits the fan especially if the conditions are more onshore than sideshore. That seems to be the exception and not the norm. This single riding practice can decrease anyone's risk at any spot. It's really a no brainer.

Point also well taken that having good role models and setting a good example will help influence others habits. All in all, we have a very good crew of riders and role models in the Tampa Bay area. I think that is due to alot of great instructors that teach here and call here home. Team riders for WSW are Craig Whiteleather, Gabe Rodriguez, Chad Siple, Brian May, and Mike Hall. I think these guys all set good examples out there, but if there is something I am missing, please let me know and I will address it. Some of our more active instructors are Doug Whidman, Mike Hall, Chase, Sammy, Matt and myself. Again, point very well taken regarding roll models, so please send me a PM if I am missing something here.

I had to speak with a past student of mine today about riding close to shore and taking risks. The first talk didn't work. I addressed him again, and I finally got through. I don't ride Sunset much, but I must say the local crew up there is the safest and most respectful group I have had the priveledge of riding with. It is unfortunate that Sunset will be a mess when Howard Park closes and the windsurfers will take over. Tough times ahead for sure.

Every spot has its hazards, and we are blessed with some beginner friendly locations. I think it should be stated again, that weather knowledge and weather discussion should be an ongoing discussion on and off the beach. Veteran riders educating the newer ones. I can personally say I have learned a ton about the weather patterns and hazards from veterans like Scott just by reading this very forum. I urge any rider to use the forum for that purpose.

Finally, I assure you our philosophy at WSW is sport preservation before profit. We would never sell a kite to a local before instruction. A minimum of 3 hour safety and 2 hour on water lesson would be required before making that sale. You might note we have no big ads in kite mags pushing lessons and promoting Tampa Bay as a place to come. On our website, there is no info regarding kite lessons or instant sign up. If you really look at our marketing of kiteboarding, IMO, it is totally on the down low. Our best form of advertising is word of mouth, and we would like to keep it that way. We have no interest in becoming a Real kiteboarding center. We, just as many of you, want to see the sport grow in a healthy way.

Some good healthy discussion. Thanks for everyone's points of view. Let's continue to ride safe, set the example, and continue to educate the inexperienced.

bayflite 08-20-2008 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve-O (Post 36075)
We would never sell a kite to a local before instruction. A minimum of 3 hour safety and 2 hour on water lesson would be required before making that sale.



that is good news!

Skyway Scott 08-21-2008 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve-O (Post 36089)
(partial quote from other thread)...

1. Focus efforts on your home turf. Promote and create safe riders. Team riders and instructors for a shop should be setting the highest example for safe riding practice. Failure to comply means no more benefit or no more job. Setting the highest example that you can will make an impact on others around you.

I am glad to see you feel this way Steve.

Can we please have a list of the WSW instructors and sponsored riders along with the standards (guidelines) that you expect them to uphold.

Please include information such as the following as a starting point - -

1) The distance from shore they will maintain while riding (both at places like EB and at the Gulf Beaches).
2) Distance from shore they will maintain during lessons.

3) Places that are acceptable to teach. I know you choose to teach in a semi-remote area with boat support.
What standards are WSW instructors held to? Are beach lessons acceptable just off shore with no vessel assistance?
In other words, just walking out 30 feet or so.


It's good to see WSW stepping up to the plate and taking a lead role by setting some examples.
I am certain the WSW team will follow any guidelines you lay down or "lose it" as you say.

It's going to be nice to have so many great role models this season.

I guess you decided to edit the prior post to include who does what.
Surprised it doesn't say "edit". My posts always do when I edit them.
Either way, at least it's up there.

Steve-O 08-21-2008 08:02 AM

I and some others are on our way to Sunset. A great place to teach on a Westerly. Flat water and tons of space.

I will respond later tonight, but all reasonable requests and definately looking forward to leading the charge in being great role models.

Steve-O 08-21-2008 08:43 PM

Man, what a day. Sunset was going off. Again, a great crew of guys up there.

The items mentioned in Scott's post are valid IMO. I want to set a good model for kiting and think I already do. I believe the team riders mentioned set an excellent example for others to follow. Where my work needs to be done is with instructors. There is definately room for improvement in that area. I can't promise overnight success, but it is something I will address as this new season progresses with each instructor we use. Do I think they do a great job? You bet. Do I think there is room for improvement? Absolutely. Do we need more consistency....yup!!!!

I am not sure why my post doesn't show edit, because I went back and shortened the philosophy part. It was a bit long winded. But names and instructors was part of the original post.

On a sad note for any Dave Matthews Band fans out there.....Leroi, the sax player died today of complications from an ATV accident. I am a huge fan of the band and especially the sax player. Unfortunate he would lose his life simply riding an ATV around his own farm. Another grim reminder of how precious life is. He will be missed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26302031/

ricki 08-21-2008 09:23 PM

Excellent initiative Steve, keep going with it. btw, previously "edited by" normally wouldn't show up if the edits were performed within a hour or so of the original post. Just changed it to 15 minutes. Keep up the innovation!

Sorry to hear about Leroi, he will be missed.

Kiteboarding Tampa Bay 08-22-2008 11:05 AM

Disclaimer:
This post is not aimed at anyone in particular, period. I have a good relationship with most shops and instructors in the area and hope to keep it that way, sorry if I offend anyone. My personal opinion does not necessarily reflect the views of TBKA, K4L, or ASF members.

I think the local instructors all do a pretty good job when teaching. I am sure there's room for improvement for more respectful riding practices when they aren't teaching, myself included.
The intro class is the first thing I tell my students about when booking a lesson. It is a prerequisite to a water lesson and worked really well last season. Sure, most of the people that call me end up getting a lesson from another instructor, but at least they're getting lessons. I am fine with that. I also personally feel that (industry-wide), lessons and gear sales should be separated ,as it is an obvious conflict of interest. My interest is in building respect for the proper learning channels (certified instruction with a complete lesson plan) and the $elfish actions of a few are making these problems much more difficult than they should be.

Since this is a positive talk about instruction, we could discuss solutions for:
1. uncertified instructors
2. poor choice of teaching location
3. Gear sales before water training
4. Local Surf shops selling kite gear
5. roadside sales- (special discounts during hurricanes!)
6. Laying out acceptable guidelines/distances for both riding and teaching in our area. (then we can start issuing pats on the back;))

BTW, kristrudo- whoever said that East Beach is an advanced location is spreading bad information. It is well known that EB is the best location we have for beginners. What makes it "advanced" for them is that no advertising or gear sales are permitted. We are committed to following the rules laid out by park officials

On less controversial note, local certified instructors can obtain Liability insurance through KTB for roughly the cost of a 3 hour lesson. This will soon be offered with several more options for certification/coverage.

TBKA and its parent organizations are actively working on everything mentioned that will get us back on the right track to preserve access and prevent accidents. Its time for us to really start working together to solve these recurring problems on our beaches.
A general membership meeting is in the works, I will post details soon.
More discussion of local topics at www.TBKA.org

Kite safe!
Steve S.

kitekristrudo 08-22-2008 02:15 PM

I have met about four people at the beaches who did not have lessons.

A couple said they purchased the kite from a store in Largo but did not say which one.

I just finished my lessons but was not riding yet and asked them not to try to fly the kites without lessons but they did it anyway.

It was really a little scary because the kite crashed so many times on the beach with people watching, I could tell they did not know how to launch the kite.

Someone should find the store in Largo and do something about it.

It would be sad to see someone get hurt trying to fly a big kite in the storm.

Erick 08-22-2008 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitekristrudo (Post 36150)
Someone should find the store in Largo and do something about it.

It would be sad to see someone get hurt trying to fly a big kite in the storm.

I’m not putting in doubt what you saw at the beach on that day but it would be a little bit more helpful if next time you get more specifics. It’s hard to do something about without names or contacts.

Steve-O 08-22-2008 10:35 PM

I pose a question on this forum about safety. Riding location as it relates to wind direction. The question has nothing to do with profits, schools, instructors, or any business for that matter. Just a simple question about safety. Rider to rider if you will.
Let's not forget all the crap that went down with guys laying in hospitals in comas and broken necks this week.

A certain person has masterfully directed the attention towards WSW team riders and instructor practices and riding habits. Taken the attention away from the question at hand. Nice job by the way.

Take this and run with it. Call the shop or send someone in and pretend like you are a new person seeking information for kiteboarding. Likely you will get referred to me. Tell us you want to buy a kite but don't want to take lessons. Load us with your resume of surfing, and skydiving, and that you are and F-16 pilot. See what we say. Ask how many hours of training should you take. Where you will learn. Tell us you want to buy four kites, 2 boards, and all the accessories, but again you don't want lessons.

Or feel free to join me and my students for our safety class that meets every Saturday from 9-12pm. We have one tomorrow. You might get sick of me though, because I sound like a parent. Its three hours of one warning after another. No joke. I don't know why anyone would want to kite after that.

It is so hard to believe that people lie? A dude came in last season and told me his friend was a great kiter of four years and was moving to Miami for school. He was going to learn down there. I sold him the kite, as probably any shop would. I warned him to make sure not to fly this kite until he got with his friend. He agreed. A week later his kite was found by the coast guard floating around Tampa Bay. Got a description of the kite and I knew who it was. Called him up and yup, he put his kite up at Cypress on an East Wind. That dude just flat out lied. I'm sure he wasn't the first, and won't be the last to lie and get gear. Anyone can pick up a phone, say the right thing and get a kite. I am sure I can get my wife to buy one tomorrow from any shop in the country.

If you want the madness to end, then work towards a sport with certified standards much like diving. I would love everyone having to be certified to buy gear. Alot of problems solved IMO. Don't we have to show ID to get a drink or buy cigarettes?

The world is not a perfect place but I can assure you this. I will continue to teach my 3 hour safety class. I will continue to go out and teach the best way I know how in the safest locations I can find. I will work with my instructors to become better and safer teachers. I will continue to tell people to get lessons and to head my warnings. I will continue to pat our team riders on the back and thank them for choosing to do business with us. They are some of our best customers and safest riders in the bay area.

Oh yeah one last thing to this incredibly tiring post. Had a nice lesson with a student of mine Wednesday at Sunset Park. Gentlemen in his 40's. I worked with him for three hours and got him up and riding. He took all my advice. Sat through my safety class, did lots of time on a trainer, and worked on board skills this summer behind his father's boat when there was no wind. Great student. Yesterday he bought a 14M Contra. Great deal by the way at 1099. He showed up back at Sunset and was hanging out on the beach. He asked me if I thought he could put up the kite a practice with it. It was hard, but I told him it was too windy for that size kite and he would have to wait another day when it was less wind. He understood and left. That dude has spent over 20+ hours preparing for this sport, and I still recommended he not go. That was tough.

By the way, that store in Largo is Watersports West.

I think I am going to take a vacation from the forum. It's crazy up in here. Face to face communication is so much better.

Peace out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wdewilde 08-22-2008 11:29 PM

Steve,
Don’t apologies for being responsible. I am a relative novice in the sport but have a vast world wide experience with so called extreme spots and the culture and responsible nature of the local area is unique. Guys like you drive it....Will

" The stories of and old man are the deeds of man in his prime"

Kiteboarding Tampa Bay 08-23-2008 07:57 AM

I agree that an accident brings out a lot of animosity between everyone, this thread is an example of that, and I obviously got reeled in and said my 2 cents. (as usual:p)
The fact is, this area is the largest, most proactive, safety minded group in the state, maybe even the country. We all need to drop the BS on the forums and start looking for soultions, and put a stop to the obvious problems going on around here. Let's lay out a course of action, and stick to it. its really that simple.

I would like to see certification before gear purchase as Steve-O mentioned, and I am sure WSW would take the lead in being the first shop to participate in a system like that, and it would draw them even more business from the locals and others who respect good business practices.

b-rad 08-23-2008 08:00 AM

[QUOTE=Kiteboarding Tampa Bay;36147] I also personally feel that (industry-wide), lessons and gear sales should be separated ,as it is an obvious conflict of interest. QUOTE]


I disagree. We sell 95% + of all our kite inventory to our students througout our lesson process. It is much safer because we can educate the student on the gear they are buying. They can even try everything out and be sure they are getting the right thing...it's way better.

Kiteboarding Tampa Bay 08-23-2008 08:53 AM

The reason you disagree is that you are a retailer, all other retailers will say the same thing you did. If you didn't have a stake in the kite biz, you might see the other side of the fence.
Nothing stops retailers from selling them a kite before they're ready. It happens all the time up here, even by non-kiters at the rest stop on the interstate. I kinda see that as a problem....
A skills test or certification card from a non retailer who is independent of the industry solves that problem.
Maybe we could sit down and chat sometime, that would be nice.
;)

H 08-23-2008 10:11 AM

Certification shouldn't be necessary this is America for God's sake.

Cert's would have done nothing to prevent the majority of bad accidents including the ones this week. The riders involved were not newbies and would have been certified anyway if it was necessary.

bryanleighty 08-23-2008 12:07 PM

FYI .. some great news:

the kiter that got hurt in Ft. Lauderdale was released from the hospital..

bayflite 08-23-2008 02:32 PM

i respect and admire your view H.
i hear ya...freedom can b messy.
but freedom without rules is annarchy
i'm just a selfish dude that hates the idea of losing access due2 kitemares perped on beach go'ers.
if we show the willingness to to self regulate, that may be all we need to convince THE MAN that we will do whatever it takes to keep non kiters safe. THE MAN could care less if we hurt ourselves.
we're all in this together.
L8

Kiteboarding Tampa Bay 08-23-2008 06:31 PM

The cert. I was speaking of is something anyone can do after a few hours of training. Its really no big deal, but does create a standard to enter the sport.
I know that a test or cert. card won't prevent an accident, that guy could have been a pro, or an Ebay kook. It doesn't matter cuz its worldwide news and now the image of our sport...
Kiters have no leg to stand on when facing a ban.
A few standards would go a long way.

Self regulation creates personal responsibility for one's actions.

The only ones I can see having a problem with that, are people who ride like assholes.

Peace

b-rad 08-23-2008 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiteboarding Tampa Bay (Post 36175)
The reason you disagree is that you are a retailer, all other retailers will say the same thing you did. If you didn't have a stake in the kite biz, you might see the other side of the fence.
Nothing stops retailers from selling them a kite before they're ready. It happens all the time up here, even by non-kiters at the rest stop on the interstate. I kinda see that as a problem....
A skills test or certification card from a non retailer who is independent of the industry solves that problem.
Maybe we could sit down and chat sometime, that would be nice.
;)

Nothing stops anyone from selling anything: guns, heavy machinery, chemicals, ultralight aircrafts...that's not the problem!!! I'm kind of tired of some people blaming kite retailers for kite accidents...that's a bunch of crap...

Any retailer selling kites would have "a stake in the biz" and need to sell stuff to keep the lights on...so respectfully, that doesn't make any sense...

It's up to the student to believe his instructor or not...if he lies to try to sell certain gear...then he sucks anyway...that's a whole different issue, and good instructors will prevail in a free society...

And if the cert. you are talking about "is something anyone can do after a few hours of training" then how useful would that be?...because after a few hours of training NOBODY is ready to go buy gear and give it a whirl. So Jonny Newbie gets his cert and goes down the road to the local (non-instructor affiliated retailer) flashes his card and buys whatever he wants with the feeling that he has the green light to fly?! Nonsense...with all due respect...

noel 08-24-2008 08:18 AM

I am going to have to agree with Brad here. WOW!! Did I say that? Anyway. I have been in this buisness for a long time and can say he is 100% right.I know a few shops that you guys all respect greatly that will sell a kite as long as you have cash in hand. I can sell you a car but I don't have to make sure you are a good driver. The shops can only relie on what is said to them. After that it is up to the individual.

kitekristrudo 08-24-2008 12:31 PM

After some thinking I agree with brad and noel, it does seem dumb to point the finger at the retailers when it is the person with the kite who makes a bad decision. We can buy a kite just about any where, ebay, ikite.

The person who was hurt in the storm made many mistakes that even a beginner like myself can spot in a short blurry 30 second film.

kite above head when overpowered is one error but riding during a tropical storm is clearly very dumb. As some others pointed out like Steve, Scott and others, coming into shore was probably a mistake in itself because thats where the buildings are. I think testosterone should be banned as us ladies don't have these problems haha.

One thing I don't understand is why everyone including our accident expert is saying this was unavoidable when it looks entirely avoidable by anyone with proper training and common sense?

bigairal 08-24-2008 12:51 PM

you are right on
 
yes you are right the accident was completely avoidable

H 08-24-2008 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiteboarding Tampa Bay (Post 36188)
The cert. I was speaking of is something anyone can do after a few hours of training. Its really no big deal, but does create a standard to enter the sport.
I know that a test or cert. card won't prevent an accident, that guy could have been a pro, or an Ebay kook. It doesn't matter cuz its worldwide news and now the image of our sport...
Kiters have no leg to stand on when facing a ban.
A few standards would go a long way.

Self regulation creates personal responsibility for one's actions.

The only ones I can see having a problem with that, are people who ride like assholes.

Peace

Stay tuned, I'll expand on this later, but I'm flying out in a couple of hours and have to go.

I appreciate what you guys are doing for the safety of the sport, but in my experience tight regulations actually result in less personal responsibility. It also has great potential for causing those that don't ride or learn responsibly to distance themselves from those who do, making it harder to influence them. Also without getting the authorities involved, which would be a really bad idea, the certification wouldn't really have any teeth. Desoto could probably go to a banner system like in Miami, with our contacts in the rangers, but other beaches would not, and legally you'd have a hard time keeping uncertified people off the water. Anyway, I gotta run, but I'll share some experiences and more on this later.

H

Kiteboarding Tampa Bay 08-24-2008 05:44 PM

I look forward to it H, I respect and value your knowledge and opinion. Have a good trip!

My reference to retailers had much more to do with the non-kiters operating out of their cars- with no respect, knowledge, or concern for the local scene.
Seeing gear being sold up and down the beach at non kiting related businesses(surf shops)should be a concern of everyone. Surf shops can blow out gear to anyone and have nothing to lose if we get banned.

jim 08-25-2008 07:29 AM

Ok who saw the GMA piece? It was not good. Glad Kevin's doing better but that did not paint the sport in a good light or kiters as responsible individuals. Saying he'd do the same thing again(kite in squally weather) but just come in a little earlier, and the reason he was out in a tropical storm was the summer was really slow for wind. OUCH

Tony 08-25-2008 08:36 AM

Good Morning America
 
speaks for itself - not good

http://abcnews.go.com/gma

Danimal8199 08-25-2008 09:02 AM

Thanks for posting that link.

This guy is lucky to be alive and should count his blessings. I'm glad he is ok, but he def. sounds like an idiot saying he would go back out, next time won't be exactly the same, so at what point is "coming in earlier" when you can't predict the wind?

This guy had a chance to really get in front of a camera and explain this situation and could have eased alot of peoples minds about our sport and his actions, he really dropper the ball.

Its especially bad when the reporter weather man warn the viewers!

noel 08-25-2008 09:04 AM

Great to get that cleared up alittle. Putting pressure on the manufacturers to stop this crap would also be a plus. I saw alot of stuff that has to do with this thread when I worked at Best. I tried to change it but was very hard to do to a company that just cared about sales. Any joe-blow could sell Best kites on the beach by calling them and stateing that they wanted to be a retailer. You didn't even have to know how to kite or have a retail shop which is still the situation. At one time I found out that they (Best) were going to let a jet ski repair shop be a retailer. None of the guy there even new how to kite. They had actually gone to the shop that was a retailer and asked to barter for lessons and gear in trade for jet ski repairs. When the shop said no, the guys went home and called Best and said how do we become a retailer and Best said "your a retailer now". I put a stop to it but not without a struggle to get them to realize what they were doing was wrong. We must put some blame where blame is due. They still sell to anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiteboarding Tampa Bay (Post 36215)
I look forward to it H, I respect and value your knowledge and opinion. Have a good trip!

My reference to retailers had much more to do with the non-kiters operating out of their cars- with no respect, knowledge, or concern for the local scene.
Seeing gear being sold up and down the beach at non kiting related businesses(surf shops)should be a concern of everyone. Surf shops can blow out gear to anyone and have nothing to lose if we get banned.


bryanleighty 08-25-2008 09:28 AM

that look the weatherman had when they cut to him during the interview was classic!

LSUkiter 08-25-2008 10:08 AM

I feel bad for the dude, no doubt. Bad stuff happens, and we take a risk in this and any sport, but come on, he didn't help any of us out. Kiteboarding just became a little more mainstream, but not in a good way.
Sorry he got screwed up, and not to be a di_k, but I'm glad I didn't make a donation to the website that's advertised. The money won't be helping him make a clearer decision in the future.

oldschool 08-25-2008 10:10 AM

after watching GMA ...
 
i wish the dude had done us all a favor and declined to be interviewed

os/sarasota

bigairal 08-25-2008 10:20 AM

old school
 
at first i thought as you did old school but then i was even going to suggest that the only way i would make a donation to his medical fund is if he agreed to wired his jaw shut!!!! but after thinking about the interview and watching what an excellent job GMA did at their questions they clearly showed that kitesurfing is not dangerous but kevin is clearly dangerous. i hope he keeps running his mouth off and show just how stupid and careless he is...awsome keep it up buddy!!!

Wolfie 08-25-2008 11:26 AM

I made a modest donation, and am sorry I did it now......That is just depressing.

bigairal 08-25-2008 12:00 PM

wolf man
 
your heart is in the right place brother...turns out he is a moron that did not learn anything....try and get your money back if possible....lets kite soon....al kite ah

Danimal8199 08-25-2008 12:21 PM

you know its not a great interview from a kiters perspective when the weather man says "This will be the most talked about segment of the day"...

bayflite 08-25-2008 12:49 PM

i'm just about ready to quit this forum rick!
 
i just hope this guys voice stays in that hilarious falsetto.
that is poetic justice.
"here turtle, turtle"
Rick I,
why r u supporting this guys actions by saying "it could happen to any of us."?
i don't get it.


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