bad decisions at the Skyway today
 

There was another close call at the Skyway North launch today. I was out on the sandbar with Amber watching the whole thing go down.

One newbie got close to another newbie late this afternoon and there appeared to be a short casual conversation between them. The wind was extremely light and when one of them tried to dive their kite, they ended up with a lull, then a gust which sent the kite into a loop and around the other newer rider's lines. The rider who was flown into was flying a 12M Turbo Diesel and immediately threw the bar (instead of trying to untangle the lines and staying calm) which now put them both at risk as the 12M Turbo Diesel powered up and began to loop. The wind was VERY light and they began to get drug. Ebone ran in quickly and grabbed the first kite (a 15 Waroo) but the TD was still powered after crashing post 2-3 kiteloops and was beginning to power itself up again. Roy ran into the water in his street clothes and helped get the second kite under control along with Trent who charged downwind and had to dive off his board, crash Ebones Ion and grab the powering Turbo Diesel. Roy walked the TD back to shore once Trent had it.

Eric said he just about sh!+ his pants when he saw his kite being dumped near this mess. Classic!

The real kicker here was that all 3 of these guys unselfishly risked a lot to help these newbies. Roy had his $500 cell phone destroyed from salt water that was in his sweatshirt pocket. This was all brought to their attention and that additional lesson(s) might be a good idea. They both shrugged it off each time saying they just need water time with one of them telling Roy "take it easy, just dry out your clothes". Not even a "I'm sorry you destroyed your cell phone saving me" or a "thank-you for saving my @$$" out of her. This rider had tried to launch with their lines crossed instead of just spinning the bar and almost took out a couple of other riders on the beach a couple of times prior to this as well.

I am pretty certain that if that had happened on a day with 5-10 knots more of wind, someone would have most likely taken a trip to the hospital if not the morgue.

Lesson learned...there are too many people just showing up to these launches and putting kites up and being careless. Stay upwind of anyone you don't know is a seasoned rider and even then stay alert. I'd be willing to bet anyone good money that someone WILL get taken out HARD (besides Dennis by Rick Day) this season...it is just a matter of time...

Toby,

I saw it too. It seemed like an innocent mistake by two new riders who both still have minimal skills but are trying.

I really respect everyone helping out, but... I told Roy I was driving my truck down the beach about 40 yards (just in case) to grab a kite, if need be. We all actually just watched for several minutes before Eric decided to go in. As he went in, I drove my truck to where the kites might come ashore. They were in shallow water and able to stand.

The wind was so light that I think 3 running out in the water may have been overkill. It made it look worse than it was. The kites truly lacked any power to do anything.

After having said that, I was very impressed with everyone's willingness to help out and get wet, etc. It's great to see everyone help. Better safe than sorry, etc.

Really sorry to see Roy's phone get trashed, that's for sure.

I don't know about the TD rider, but I watched Woody (Red Waroo) all afternoon.
He walked out aways always before launching and was very aware and respectful of his surroundings. He was doing everything he could to be safe.

I bet you are right about someone getting taken out this season.
Not to be morbid, but I place my bets on someone on shore just about to launch getting tangled by a trickster close to shore. That seems to be the most dangerous place to be with a kite around here, is right on shore with your back to the action. That's where I see most tangles occur and unfortunately, trucks are usually about 1 second away.

Skyway Scott, thank you for the aditional information. Sounds like a small situation get blown up. When I see "power up" and "kite loop", some things diferent that "light wind" comes to my mind. If you were able drive your truck to the kites might come ashore, I guess the kiters were out in the water. Sounds like this is just blown up. Thanks for calming this down.

Paz
Jaime

I will start my reply by saying that I am not trying to give newbies in general a hard time. I myself had another QR malfunction issue and have learned my lesson to check both the CL QR and my leash QR before EVERY session going forward to make sure they aren't loose. I lost Amber's Waroo into the mangroves Wednesday morning because I didn't pay enough attention to detail. Luckily the kite was fine, not a scratch on it and I didn't pay too dearly for my mistake. I also fell hard in front of Bryan Leighty but he has enough control to avoid a falling kiter and avoided a potentially bad situation. I will be the first to say that I lucked out there too.

But I have to disagree with you Scott, a kite looping (out of control) 2-3 times and ready to launch and loop again in most ANY wind conditions and while wrapped up in someone else's lines is BAD NEWS and is nothing to downplay. This was the first time that I had seen the guy on the Red Waroo riding so I am not aware of how he was riding prior to that (I was focusing on helping Amber), but we did see the whole thing unfold and the guy on the Red Waroo is the one who (1) rode TO the Turbo Diesel rider to say something and (2) dove his kite into hers. He also dove the kite TOWARD her lines instead of tacking in the opposite direction of where her lines were in the way. Not too safety conscious in my book.

What if someone had been downwind of them when this happened? Would it not be a big deal after a 3rd innocent rider was taken out? Paz - they were out a bit but were on the "inside" still and were being very lax about getting the kites under control while getting drug downwind toward the beach and downwind at the same time. 5 more knots and it would have been a whole other ball game...

If they both had minimal skills but are trying, they should have been trying at a safer launch or doing what we were doing with Amber and walking themselves out to the sandbar and riding there. I also think that newbies should not get close to ANYONE until they are fully comfortable and confident in their kite flying skills.

Bottom line, if they had been alone there would have been consequences to the uncontrolled looping of that Turbo Diesel. Just ask Ebone and Roy who were in the thick of it, that kite had power even in the light wind.

Yo, this was not "blown up" at all by Toby. I asked him yesterday to post on this because this is a problem that needs to be discussed, not swept under the rug.

I sat and watched for a bit, thinking it would be a good opportunity for these two to learn a lesson about staying away from other riders. Then the TurboDiesel started to loop, so I walked out. Even then, it didn't look like a big deal from shore but once I waded out I realized it was a clusterf*ck out there on the water. Neither newbie knew what to do to shut the kites down. Trent saved the day by riding in like the Lone Ranger and grapping the TurboDiesel after it hit the water after a kiteloop. Trent probably prevented damage to both kites, because the loops were putting a lot of pressure on the Waroo canopy and the TurboDiesel would have likely looped into some rocks or trees had it made it to shore.

The wind was light when the tangle happened, but that was a gratuity. We were all waiting for some heavy wind to switch on with sunset approaching. I had rigged and was riding a 12m. Had the wind come up as expected, this situation would have gotten sketchy fast and I would have been running away from those kites versus trying to get in there and get things untangled.

When I go to the 16m Waroo that was down, I could see that the Slingshot bar was caught up in its bridle, hence the kiteloops. There were lines all around me and I started to regret going out there when the TubroDiesel looped. There was power in it and both the Waroo rider and I were getting dragged. I had Waroo lines all over me pretty fast and I was thinking, "here we go again," with thoughts of my 2005 kitemare that involved getting dragged by two kites.

I don't think either of the newbies were being rabid *ssholes, but there was an air of nonchalance about the whole thing from them, like this is a normal part of kiteboarding. It isn't. This type of problem is what killed Silke Gorldt. Tangling with someone else's kite should be taboo in this sport, not a "small situation."

I think inexperience caused this, but trying to learn is not a good reason to go out and cause a reckless kitemare. The newbie woman looped her kite a few times and got dragged when she first tried to launch it at the start of her session and did not look comfortable flying the kite. She also came pretty close to hitting Adam with her kite before getting tangled with the other newbie. She was very friendly but I will avoid her on the water for the time being like the plague and I would be hesitant to launch her kite after what I saw yesterday.

The tide was not all that high yesterday afternoon. Riders with this kind of skill level, once they are comfortable flying their kites, need to head out to the sand bar and not get bunched up near the shore to minimize the chance of these kind of kitemares. Further, they should then stay away from other riders, especially other beginners. Bows and SLEs don't depower worth a shit when they are wrapped up together. Those two newbies just got lucky that the wind didn't jump by 8 knots after they got tangled.

I am really glad that you guys helped these new riders out and it shows what a great community we have. I don't believe a kite would have hit shore, I was there waiting for it.
At no point did a rider get dragged, there just wasn't enough wind. If they had started to get dragged, it would have been straight at where I was. I don't think that is the issue, anyway. I think posting about 2 newbies "messing up" is the issue.

I believe if you want to say something (even forcefully) say it then and there.
The main reason I hopped on here is b/c they might be reading this and might be getting upset. The are new to our scene and as such, are still relative outsiders.

Woody did his best all day to stay out of our way and avoid collision, but practice too. There was never more than 6 riders in the water and it was light and a weeknight. I saw the accident, it was not due to negligence, but lack of ability when 2 newbies got close to each other. This is going to happen. When I was on the water with them, they were of zero concern to me. If I can't ride upwind of a newb, I should quit. Anyone knowingly riding very close to and downwind of a newb is taking their chances, imo.

Recently a new rider confessed in me that she was close to quitting after someone was yelling at her (for next to nothing). That's just not right to me and this seems similar.
Something in else made us help them out, let's not let them down now.

Newbies whether we like it or not, or not going to stop coming in (in HUGE numbers).
I (and other long time riders) have watched this place go from 6 total riders, to 12, to 25, to 35, to 55, to 100, to.... you get the point. New riders (with their errors) are here to stay.

If one of those two starts to show a history of being a dweeb (like Rick Day), let's get together and have a talk with them. Until then, what newbie didn't screw up once?

I know for a fact, Woody has always been respectful and asked for advice. He takes it and wants to be safe. I first met Woody 2 seasons ago at NB. He was windsurfing and I was kiting. I bet the gal on the TD is the same. These are not two mean spirited people we are talking about, these are kiters (in the best since of the term).

Just please think about it.

Yup
 

Yeah E-Bone look pretty freaked out! He ran in the water when the TD powered up and started to loop. It was dragging them down wind towards the beach. Luckly the TD hit the water and died. E-bone ran out and grabbed the waroo. Then the TD powered up again and started to drag E-bone and the guy hooked up to the waroo. E-Bone just looked at me when I was the beach with this (OH CRAP HELP) look on his face. I was still in my street clothes, but F it. I just ran in to help grab the other kite. I didnt want to see E-Bone get tangled in the lines or anyone hurt. I was running to the TD to try to catch it, again it crashed in the water. I was still far from them trying to get to the TD to get it before it started to loop. Luckly Trent rode by and bascially jumped on the TD to prevent it from powering up again. Kudos to Trent, I earned a ton of respect for Trent when he went in to help. We got all the kites out of the water and everyone was ok. Yeah, so what if I trashed my phone and was soaked. I would do that for any rider if they are in real trouble. It just kind of makes me upset when they got out of the water and just had this "Its no Big deal" attitude. They are very lucky they where not out for DP that morning when I was riding and it was about 20 to 28 knots. I could see two trashed kites and both of them injured. I just hope they learned something and will try to take more caution.

On another note I did see that guy in the Red Waroo and he did seem to be riding pretty safe while I was there. He was trying to be safe and was trying to learn. I think he just lost control and dived his kite into the other person kite on accident. It just seems like whoever taught them would have said "DISTANCE is your friend." Heck even now I try to keep away from everyone as much as I can for safey reason. The other person in the TD could have used a few more lessons I think before trying to hit the water by themselves. I saw that person and scared me a few time while I was watching them ride.

Oh yeah! I did say something when they came in. I told them they where very luckly, and should be glad they where not out here this morning. I told them that one of them could of gotten seriously hurt with higher wind condition. Again I got the "Its not a big deal" attitude.

Note to self (and others)...

stay upwind of Toby.

I was not there to see the accident but I do know that it takes nothing for a kite to go too far in one direction quickly.. and I have been in situations where my kite has come damn close to hitting another riders kite.

I guess its reading about the attitude of the riders after the accident that upsets me the most.

Note to self (and others)...

stay upwind of Toby.

I was not there to see the accident but I do know that it takes nothing for a kite to go too far in one direction quickly.. and I have been in situations where my kite has come damn close to hitting another riders kite.

I guess its reading about the attitude of the riders after the accident that upsets me the most.

You guys did the right thing helping them out. Part of being a beginner is being ignorant to what can and will happen when things go bad. You can't blame them for playing it off as no big deal, they just don't know yet what it feels like to be dragged 100 yards across sand and rocks unable to disconnect from an out of control kite.

I was the same way when I started... I was overconfident and fearless, and I am also lucky to be alive as are most of us that have been through a few REAL kitemares. I know E-Bone, Josh, Bayflite, Scott, Jay, Raul, etc, have so they know what I mean. C'mon Toby we could have done this to you for all of the antics you've pulled since you started! Riding backside and looping the kite into trees, the down winder recently where all of you guys lost your boards .. that fact is that this sort of thing happens when you are starting out and it's part of the learning experience.. so there is no reason to jump all over them.

In 8mph winds, I really don't think this was was a big deal.. it was merely an inconvenient learning experience for both riders. No need to get on here and roast them publicly... just a description of what happened is enough.

I think there is a difference between self regulation and public humiliation. We don't want this sport to turn into surfing where newbies get beat up on the beach for dropping in on someone else's wave.... While I don't like the idea of overcrowding, I can't live with the fact that we may be chasing beginners away and crushing their dreams of learning to kiteboard. I've had this happen to me in other sports and it's a horrible feeling that would not want anyone else to feel.

Save the yelling and public beatings for the experienced rider who KNOWS BETTER and does this sort of thing out of complete disregard for himself and those around him! You know, like jumping and landing on shore, jumping and landing on other riders, and tangling lines, etc.

So hey guys, if you are reading this, no harm done but be careful.

Roy, remove the battery and soak the phone in fresh water. Let it dry out for a few days in a sunny warm place and put in a NEW battery. It will work fine. Been through this many times.

Looks like a beautiful day to ride. I hope you guys are enjoying DP while I'm sitting at work :(

-tom

Cell PHone
 

Yeah I washed my phone out with Fresh water and letting it dry off. I am hoping that it will be ok, but I am planing for the worse. I already bought another cell phone. I have a feeling that my phone is toast. Its one of those PDA phones with the big touch screen LCD. Those screen really dont like water for some reason. LOL Like I said no big deal, I would destroy my phone again to help a rider out. I am just glad no one got hurt and everyone is ok.


I did get some great pictures of there kitse all tangled up. (They are funny to look at now) LOL

Oh yeah and some picture of E-bone doing his new signature move. I like to call it the "E-Bone Entrance Only" LOL. Bascially Ebone unhooks. Turns around shows his favorite Entrance on his body to the 50 year olds guys sitting in there cars on the beach! LOL


http://www.epickitesurfing.com/pics/...6/IMG_2561.JPG

Tom, I am just describing what I saw. Let me ask you a question...Does your Wife kite? I already know the answer is no. Well I had Amber on the water (well upwind) at the same time. She is almost ready to be set loose on her own. Now imagine your Wife attached to a kite that another newbie tangles with and all of the sudden they start to get drug. Would it be such a laid back mistake then? Probably not.

Make low blows all you want, I am the first to admit my faults and have even done so in this thread, jokingly downplayed by Bryan but a rider error nonetheless. If I remember correctly, I also posted a thread MYSELF about my looping experience on the beach at the backside into the tree. I posted them criticizing MYSELF Tom, no you didn't post it nor anyone else. Just like I post ALL of my dumb moves out here in hopes that someone might learn from my mistakes before making the same ones themselves. How do you know we all lost our boards in the Gulf? Because I manned up and posted it. Plus you don't seem to have all of the information because I didn't lose my board in the Gulf. I had 2 QR malfunctions and lost my KITE in the Gulf and the 2 riders I was with lost their boards trying to help me retrieve the kite. One was retrieved and I am helping the other guy to get a new one (financially) because it was seen being "stolen" from the water. I am pretty sure that most other kiters would just say "that sucks" and be done with it.

You weren't there so I see no reason for you to throw low blows at those who were and are just describing what happened. I have plenty of newbie perspective, I was one just last year and Amber is one this year. If the 2 guys who were helping to retrieve the kites say the situation was dangerous, it was. Scott was watching from the beach.

If I remember correctly Tom, you are the one who was questioning a local instructor's abilities and mocking his qualifications. Take a hard look in the mirror before criticizing a thread of this nature my friend.

Both kiters in question were anonymous to all until Scott named one of them...I didn't call anyone out but rather described a bad situation that easily could have been worse. The intent was not to discourage anyone. Just ask Dale Alexander, a newbie who is coming out with his Wife to learn...I am all about newcomers...SAFE newcomers. If Scotts friend was safe other than this, that is great. Fact is, a mistake was made and I hope both kiters learn a lesson from it.

Nah, it wasn't a personal attack...I said this is something we ALL go through including you. Read it again, slower this time.

What qualifications? He's been riding for a year! Should he be teaching kiteboarding professionally for a local shop? *I* don't think so, but my opinion is different than everyone else's so I accepted that and moved on.

Safety starts with the instructor. After that it's something they build on from experience.

The flat glassy water and SS glides in the photo are fairly telling. Wish I was there.. looks like a nice lazy cruising day.

The newbies don't need to take this thread as a shot at them. That's not been the tone of this thread. What is being noted is a bad kiteboarding decision and the possible outcome of same. What we have done here is discuss why tangling kites is a bad idea and what can be done to prevent it. As a community, we should be able to talk about these issues.

When I nearly got waxed by that 9m Waroo in early 2006, I was right on the forum with an explanation of what went wrong and how it could be avoided. 4 of the 5 factors leading to the kitemare were avoidable (and my own errors) which allowed the 5th factor, a design flaw, to kick in. After getting a serious woodshed beatdown, I readily admitted to my own mistakes that led to the kitemare. I don't gloss over my own mistakes and I won't look the other way when people f*ck up in a way that can impact everyone.

The idea here is for kiters, particularly beginners, to avoid other kiters on the water. In very light wind, the results of a tangle was not catastrophic but was still bad for them and the rest of us. It ended their sessions, nearly ripped the Waroo (and I surprised it didn't rip from trailing to leading edge), led to Roy having his phone trashed (danger invites rescue, as Justice Cardozo once said, and Roy responded by trying to jump in to help), and the whole snafu caused the Bone to have a minor kitemare flashback.

This is not even a true kitemare, as some have pointed out. The photo Roy posted was from a December 2006 session but it was not very windy yesterday at the time of the tangle, maybe 12 or so, if that. I was on a Gilde and a 12m yesterday, so it wasn't honking. There was no blood, either, so I don't think this was a real kitemare. Real kitemares keep you awake and thinking for several nights afterward.

Still, the potential for carnage was there. The actual outcome here is not the only stick by which the problem should be measured. Scott and I charged yesterday afternoon in the hope for a 20mph session just before sundown--hell, we were sure it was going to go off. The wind never kicked in but it usually does, without warning, under those weather circumstances. The outcome of such a tangle had the wind jacked up could have been severe. The newbies, as well as every other beginner around here, deserve feedback regarding that potential outcome.

I have spent a lot of time within the last year pointing out newbie errors because I think that local newbies, not hotdogs, are at the most risk for being in a kite mishap this year resulting in injury or death because the new gear, when used as designed, allows for so much depower, leading in some riders to a false sense of security. When the gear is misued, however, whether through improper rigging, leash use or nonuse, hot launches, tangles, etc., you suddenly have a ton of power that is out of control.

I look forward to seeing both of these newbies, toward whom I have no animus, developing into solid members of the local crew. Still, no one, particularly a beginner, is above having his or her riding discussed by others when that riding is being done at our main kiteboarding launches.

On another note, Roy, that new trick is actually called the "Bottoms Up." Everyone can keep hating on the Bone but when I throw that trick, especially at Backside, I always end the session with lots of cash stuffed into my harness. Gotta pay for new gear somehow.

Picture
 

Oh sorry, that picture was from a session back in December. I got some pictures of the BONE doing is new HOT trick too. I just have not posted them on my site. I was just trying to lighten up the mood.

I should have pictures up by tomorrow of the shots I took. Got some pretty good one of Bryan E and Steve S. Remeber if you ever want a picture just yell at me when you see me at the beach and I would be more than happy to get you a little photo session. LOL

Yeah I am very sad E-Bone did pop out the Hello Kitty! I really wanted to get that on film! I have so many request for a shot of the Bone doing his infamous Hello Kitty! LOL Maybe I will get bored and have to work some magic with photoshop one day!

I would say when it all went down it was about 14 knots, but everything thought it was going to pick up to above 20. I am really glad that it didnt now.


My Bad, I will make sure that it is always called the "Bottoms UP" now. Even though I think "E-Bone's Entrance Only" has a better ring to it. Man maybe I need to bust out this move so I can get that extra cash like you so I can afford all the gear you have! LOL

Some info
 

Some info on Rick Day. Many of you have seen Damien's vid of him getting some huge air off of sand dunes in ????. In talking with Damien today at the demo, which Rick was at also, Damo mentioned that Rick was at the dune when Damien was attempting some crazy stuff. Rick also tried to do the same thing. There were some other pros at this spot that wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Damo tried to talk Rick out of it as well as tell his girlfriend that he was going to get really hurt if not killed. His girlfriend replied "he is a daredevil". Upon some of Rick's attempts, he took some really bad falls down the dune. Damo and company couldn't stand to watch and didn't want to be around to see death..... So they left.

Point being, Rick will take some incredible risk with a kite. We have seen what the outcomes of his decisions are. Speaking with him today, he still seems to not take much responsibility for his actions. Like the newbies today, he kind of shrugs it off.

I am not sure where to go from here, but the next windy, crowded day on the water with Rick could be fine but could not.

I have not ridden this area for that long. Have we had any types of riders like this in the past? What has been done about it? What can we do about it? Does self regulation work?

We will all need to take the newbies under our wing and use our knowledge, experience, and skill to rescue them from a bad situation. We will need to insist more lesson time for someone that looks really shaky. We should put a little pressure on these folks that take a few hours of lessons and then try to figure out the rest on their own. It is ultimately the experiences one's that are left to pick up the mess. But what do we do about the "daredevil's" that don't see themselves as "dare-devils"?

Dennis is in a nasty situation with no easy ending to his problem. IMO Dennis got of lucky. It could have been alot worse.

Scott, you are right. The sport is blowing up....it can't be stopped. It is more fun on the water than the law allows. This sport is like buying a race car that flies and mixing new and old on a track the size of a football field.

The situation WILL only get worse not better. I think rider certification is inevitable for these populated spots. It is a big can of worms, but anyone got any better ideas? Not just anyone can show up at Sebring and ride the track. You have to join a club, sign paperwork, and prove yourself. It is a process that keeps a dangerous sport safer than without it.

Finally, I hope we don't look back after a serious injury or death and say "we could have fixed this...this could have been avoided." We all talk about self regulating the sport, but maybe it is time some serious discussion is had about our issues, our future, and maybe becoming a unified front that share the same values in keeping this sport safe for everyone....new and old alike.

It will be a tough road and already is....but anything worth doing as you know takes effort.

Not for dune jumping..

but..

For returning to local beaches after refusing to be responsible for his actions.

I'll definitely second Bryans comment...

Steve, this is a tricky situation which may get trickier. In my first post about Rick (which I deleted upon request from Dennis for legal reasons) I made it clear that newbies with a limited skill set were, imo, in a totally different league than Rick. I went out of my way to point that out and also to say that this was the first time I ever put a post up against a rider. I think posting about bad occurences rarely leads to anything and that action on scene should be taken.

There is a drastic difference between an innocent (very small, and one time made) mistake by a newbie that was made last night that may have lead to "carnage" in 20, but that actually didn't lead to much and a "repeat offender" that by all accounts, leaves a very strong impression in everyone's minds who encounters him. I believe the new riders last night won't intentionally repeat their mistake and obviously want to learn from it. I am also confident that prior to this thread riders understood that tangling kites is a no-no.

I am not convinced Rick is the same (in terms of learning from his repeated mistakes). His local forum is concerned as our we and now Damien says something. What to do? I don't know. But to me if a repeat "offender" isn't approached, who will be?

If we are going to honestly police this area, we need to (like Steve is attempting to do) agree on some basics or get a conversation going. It seems like a good idea.
However, repeated attempts have been made live (in meetings) and also made on seperate forums at making some agreements for over 5 years. Most conversations basically went nowhere. It's hard to agree as a group on anything, so I understand.

At this point I honestly believe that we are safer (as a group) than we were 3 years ago when we had less riders. The reason is that we can ride tighter with higher kites and most of the time not get tea bagged in gusts due to increased ability to spill wind.
I also think kiting is attracting respectful professional people out for a good time, so I am personally alot less worried and quite surprised at how well things are going (at least here).
3 years ago I honestly thought we had one season left.

I think what has kept this local scene so good and safe is the communication that exists at the launches and the helpfulness of the riders.

Steve-O, good post. I agree with everything you said including rider certs (which is already something that is happening).. except for comparing Rick to the newbies. Like Scott, I think Rick is something entirely different. Scott, your post is dead on.

Rick Day
 

Well I have to give it to Rick. He has a huge set for still showing up and riding around here. He does not have a lot of fans around here. I would not show my face at ones of the Tampa Area lanches if I pulled half the stuff that he did. Just the pure fact of having a ton of pissed off kiter not wanting me around would be enough for me. I heard from someone that he was riding N. Beach a few days ago. Telling other people NON facts on what happen that day. He even said to them that he was kind of a Kamakize type of guy. Really, I have no issues running Rick off the beach if I am there riding. Just for the pure fact I dont want him trying any of his crap around me or any of my bros.

But I am with everyone getting certfied to ride. If some regulated Kite Cert Company would step in and say you need a cert to buy gear and ride at the spots I would be for it. Yeah its a pain, but it will make things safer in the long run. Also for some reason when people have to get a piece of paper with there name on it they seem to take it a little more seriously. I am actuing going to get the IKO cert pretty soon just to say I have it.

Steve-O: Does PASA have some kind of riders cert they give out like IKO does? If so are you guys going to be giving those out when you teach students once you become a PASA school? Also what would I have to do to get that cert from you guys? Oh yeah, got to try that Pro-Limit harness yesterday. It's freaking awesome, thanks for helping me out with that.

Tricky area
 

I think dealing with experienced riders that make poor choices will always be a tough one to deal with. A solution to that kind of problem may never arise. Self regulation may be the only answer for this one.

However, having new people that enter the sport prove their skills through a certification process can only help on ongoing problem that we all witness more and more with each day passing. I am very happy to hear that these two that Toby originally spoke of chose to get their feet wet on a light day. A point that should be stressed to all entering the sport. Because of the light winds, nothing bad happened. Roy, there lack of apology was probably due to embarrasment.

I think everyone would agree that East Beach and Skyway North get the most activity or riders. Should rider certification be a requirement to ride these spots? Rider cert. will not guarantee smart riding by experienced riders, but will guarantee that someone entering has a certain skill level. As I told Tom Scott in an another post, I didn't ride these areas until after 6 months of working on my skills elsewhere in much less crowded and forgiving places. A philosophy I hope to share with all students I come in contact with. Did I miss alot of windy days by choosing this route....you bet....but it was the choice I made that many newbies are not making.

Using the Sebring parallel, would anyone send their 15 year old to the race track to learn how to drive? Usually, we start in an empty parking lot and work towards uncrowded neighborhoods, eventually driving on small town roads, and ultimately being skilled enough to drive on the highway. Our parents governed us well....well at least mine did. LOL! Even with that, accidents do happen. We can't govern our roads of the reckless drivers, we have to rely on public officials and laws. Luckily a liscense insures us that drivers have had to go through some type of checks and balances. But it is no guarantee of our safety. A fact we know everytime we get into a car.

I am sure this concept of rider cert. has been covered before with no real outcome. Maybe I will get shot down for these ideas...but again what can it hurt to discuss these important issues to our sport? New faces bring new discussion. Seasoned riders could easily be grandfathered in, but new folks entering is a whole other issue. This is where my focus is.

Certification would require certified instructors insuring certain skills before they leave their program. I am not even certified yet....but I am looking to the future of our sport as a rider not an instructor. This post would be no different if I was a banker or a painter.

I look forward to this discussion...I think it is needed.

problem is enforcing that someone has a certification..

who will be out there to police the place.

i know i wont. i usually have limited time to kite and i get to the beach, rig and ride. I typically never come off the water until i am done and then i pack up and leave.

i know a number of riders hang out on the beaches more than i but who wants to be the hall monitor ..

besides.. north skyway is not even a beach.. its just a turn about..

ft. desoto we would have to coordinate w/ the rangers .. thats official involvement that we would all like to avoid.

i TRULY think the best way to go about this is for the experienced riders to keep an eye out for any possible issues and be as professional and direct as possible.

we all know that there is a huge difference between this Rick guy's situation and the newbie on the beach that might be able to rig and somewhat ride and is showcasing some bad habits. Its the helpful attitude that will get the best response from those that want to learn and want to be involved in the sport.

ya .. there might be some times where you just want to go "what the F**K are you thinking !!!!!???!?!" ... but that gets you no where.

self policing is going to rest on the shoulders of the those that want to keep the launch areas safe.

no one else gives a crap if we have a place to ride or not.

instructors will need to solidify these habits as much as possible.. we will have to do the policing..

thats my 2 cents.

-b

If someone is being a dangerous BUTTHEAD it is up to The local kiters to say so. Out of many,One. Ring a Bell?

I agree with you Jordan , we all have to step up to the plate when we see this kind of behavoir not only to prevent bans and injury but also to prevent what happened to Dennis

Kite Certs
 

I agree with Bryan.

In theroy, I like the idea of kite certs but it comes down to enforcement. Consider the number of laws on the books. It only matters what is enforced.

I think the direct on the beach approach is the best we have.

I do believe it would be helpful to try and get an agreed upon set of guidelines. I know we have several sources for general good practicies. These should be distributed first by local instructors and then periodaclly at our local spots.

Even a short flyer of guidelines that could be distributed at our local spots would be helpful.

I know when Byran and I started, we were active in seeking out guidence from the local riders and online groups but others may not and bascilly trying to stay as far as possbile from other riders. It was also about six months after we got our basic skills down before we moved to the Skyway.

What has/ or is worked(ing) the best in other areas?

The only guy able to certify locally and the best candidate for coordinating teaching for obvious reasons is Eagle.
Hopfully he still check the forum.

After what I have seen lately. I have decided that the core of us riders (most if not all read this forum) need to start being more active in talking to people about safe practices and approaching people who are being dangerous. I must say that I am the live and let live type, but I feel that I really need to make a solid effort to both help and confront when needed. The rick situation raises an interesting point. Why aren't we being more hostile toward him? Should we "let" him ride our spots without making things right with Russky? This is more a questions than a statement.
And another questions...how far should/can we go in getting rid of someone who endangers us/others? Also I like the idea of passing out local standards or best practices to anyone who we do not know. We could all carry some fliers in our kite bags. I don't know if it would help, but cannot hurt!

No ofense, but the paper hand out idea is kinda lame. Sorry.
Just say something when it needs to be said.

Now, the idea of forcing the guy out is good. If everyone at the site gathers and tells the guy to leave, he is unwanted, I bet he'll leave, no fighting no nothin. Everyone has to stand by it though, no just 1 hero. 10-15 heros. No violence though. Then you will be wrong. Theres only one person that should be ass kicking thes guy, and he's not even on here.

And as far as this forum, most riders aren't on here, only a few, very bored, people. OOPs, guess that me too

Paz
Jaime

does he live here now?
visiting?
staying with any local riders that might be able to talk to him?

Thanks for posting these Dennis.

Not this shit again

answer to this question
Steve-O: Does PASA have some kind of riders cert they give out like IKO does? If so are you guys going to be giving those out when you teach students once you become a PASA school?

<A PASA level 2 instructor can issue a riders certification for a membership fee to the pasa organization i think the fee is around 25 dollars and it states a riders skill level -- level 1,2,3 <level 3 being an etirely self sufficient rider who can go up wind, transition both ways, jump and rides progressively ect. the only better thing about it is that the card looks way cooler and has your picture on it. I just got a PASA level 1 instructor certification for sake of school club logistics, a level 2 status is given after 30 student reviews are submitted. Hope that clears things up a bit. Taking a class abroad untill jan 27th im fiendin for some wind bad, cant wait to get back.
-matt sexton

Thanks for the clarification Matt! Sounds like getting both PASA and IKO is the best way to go...Steve or Matt, what would it take to get that PASA cert? I have a level 3 IKO but it couldn't hurt to get the PASA as well. Just the $25 then???

yea, i wont be able to do it though untill ive gotten thirty students feedback for PASA, i got my pasa rider certification from eagle last year, so thats who i´d hit up if you want it asap, i´ve got both iko and pasa, rider insurance and starting instructor training, only for logistics with eckerd though, that 25 dollar fee is an annual one with PASA but thats the company thats legit suppesdly in the US, to me it all just seems like a bunch of red tape nonsense but i wanna have all my bases covered for the club and i´m more than happy to help anyone else out in the process when possible
-matt sexton

Yes, Matt is right on the money. I am not sure about the coolness of the card, but a bonus. I understand the the IKO instructor training is alot better than PASA, however, IKO does not offer the liability insurance. At least not yet.....after talking with Chris at Miami Kiteboarding, IKO is on track to offer some type of liablity insurance in 07.

It will be sometime before I am able to certify riders..... 30 students could take a year to get through or more.

In the meantime, we should all do our part to help out new folks to the sport. I see some great things out there with everyone trying to keep things safe.

Matt, I saw one of your club riders the other day....he is looking good. You have done a great job with him. Last time I saw him, he was really struggling, but looked very confident on the water. Nice job!!!!