WHAT WENT WRONG? - Summary Of Ft. Lauderdale Lofting & Videos

[ricki]

http://www.fksa.org/albums/album347/Sat_Image.sized.jpg
From: http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/gallery/

A satellite image of Tropical Storm Fay approaching Florida at about 2 pm, Tuesday, August 18, 2008. It was working on strengthening into a hurricane which fortunately did not come about. You can see the cyclonic counter clockwise cloud rotation and feeder bands extending to the south over Cuba. The feeder bands or zones of convection are frequently associated with violent cumulonimbus clouds, supercells, bursts and other forms of severe weather. The fragmentary "eye or center of rotation appears to the southwest. "X" marks the approximate location of the events to follow.

Tropical Storm Fay was well publicized to strike South Florida on Monday and Tuesday, August 18 and 19, 2008. High winds were widely forecast with gusts on the order of 40 to 60 kts. in abundant squalls lines in feeder bands that were obvious on radar, satellite images and to the naked eye (see radar images). Weather hazard alerts were being broadcast through all media on a regular basis and were more than obvious to experienced watermen. Many kiteboarders looked at forecasts and conditions and said no way they were going out in these hazardous conditions. High winds, erratic wind changes, lightning, lulls are commonly known to pose serious hazards to kiteboarders in such squalls. Most kiters in the area hadn't been kiting in about a month and half due to seasonal light winds. Unfortunately, not all kiteboarders came to this same sensible conclusion that Monday.

http://www.fksa.org/albums/album347/Radar_s_20080818_215804_black.png
A radar image of South Florida and Tropical Storm Fay at 5 pm showing the counter clockwise rotation of feeder bands.

At about 5 pm, Monday a dark squall was moving in from the southeast into Ft. Lauderdale Beach, FL, USA. Visibility was about 2 to 3 miles with frequent rain showers and passing clouds. This particularly squall was lead by a zone of white water or intense rain showers. Squall lines had been clocked at traveling 60 mph or a mile a minute that day related to Fay. So, by the time the squall was seen, it might arrive in less than 3 minutes with powerful winds from the gust front perhaps arriving even before that. In effect faster than anyone might be able to come in and secure in some cases, you have no time.

http://www.fksa.org/albums/album347/Radar_Closeup.jpg
Radar images from: http://www.rap.ucar.edu/weather/
An intense squall denoted in red is firing axially into the beach at Ft. Lauderdale beside the "X" Such squall lines are frequently associated with very high wind gusts, microbursts, tornados, hail and lightning. Not sure but those curved red archs may be "bow echos" indicative of microbursts. Microburst can generate wind up to 170 mph over a 2 mile radius.


http://www.fksa.org/albums/album347/Oblique.jpg
A satellite oblique image looking eastward over the area. The two kiteboarders were in the vicinity of the "X" while the news cameraman was near the "P"

Two kiteboarders had just landed on the beach and had their kites low waiting for guys to grab and secure their kites. The winds had been around 16 kts. with one of the two kiters underpowered on his 9 m kite. They had come in to avoid the squall but arrived too late to escape its impact. While they were standing there squall winds hit with wind speeds approximated at 40 to 50 kts. Torrential rain also started.

http://www.fksa.org/albums/album347/Dania_8_18_08_2.gif
From: http://www.ikitesurf.com/
The wind plot is truncated at 5 pm from a station on the Dania Beach Pier four miles to the south. Winds were estimated by experienced observers at the site to gust to approximately 40 to 50 kts.. This is a common occurrence in sudden gusts with the actually velocity being substantially higher. At around 5 pm, the wind lulled to less than 10 kts. and explosively gusted to perhaps 50 kts.. Such wind patterns are not uncommon in tropical system and cold front squalls in this area.


http://www.kiteforum.com/download/file.php?id=21518
Another wind graph from about 1.9 miles south and perhaps 1.25 miles inland in Pt. Everglades. This shows a gust to around 40 kt. but is likely influenced by wind shadow and distance from the accident scene.


Four guys were running to secure the two kites. One of the kiters sat down extended his legs against the pull and forced his kite into the ground. He was flying a 2009 9 m C kite and was dragged about 30 ft. through the sand. At one point the kite was folded in half by the combined wind force and pressure applied by the kiter to hold the kite in place. Hobie Cat sailboats were immediately downwind of his kite and likely to catch the kite if the dragging continued to that point. His kite was grabbed and secured. You can see this kite behind or to the south in the news video.


** Several video clips of the accident appear HERE (http://cbs4.com/video/?id=60523@wfor.dayport.com)



The other kiter was standing about 20 ft. further north and southeast of the SE corner of the wooden deck where the news cameraman was located. The kiter to the north kept yelling to the kiteboarder "keep your kite down" over and over again. Despite this sound advice, the southern kiter may have panicked perhaps when dragging started, as he suddenly brought his kite up from the horizontal well off the ground, initiating a lofting* in the strong winds. He ran inland for about 15 ft. before being lofted. His option for Emergency Depowering may have largely ended after that point given the speed and violence at which things progressed from that point onward. Guys were likely seconds from grabbing his kite but it flew up and away from them. He was lofted a distance of about 100 ft. north in the gust. He must have applied pressure to the right side of his control bar causing what appeared to be a kiteloop as he was flown downwind to the northwest. He struck and was dragged through the sand and then lofted again as shown in the video. One observer said the speed of flight exceeded that which he has seen in high wind kiteloops. The kiterboarder flew roughly 275 ft. horizontally and about 20 to 25 ft. high over parked cars falling into A1A. This intermediate landing did not show up in the news video clip. He was lofted a third time about 40 ft. into an alley between a restaurant and mid rise condominium building. He was seen to hold on to his bar throughout the accident with both hands and made no attempt to Emergency Depower the kite. He struck the pavement and perhaps the south building wall of the condo.


Another kiter saw what happened and sprinted across the street in driving rain, poor visibility indicated in the video to aid the kiteboarder. The lofted kiter was lost to view so the responding man ran through the restaurant and around the building furiously trying to locate the lofted kiter. He found the man lying in the alley in seconds. The responding kiter immediately disconnected the man's quick release disconnecting his kite. The man was flying a 9 m flat kite. There was a tremendous quantity of blood around the man. He was unconscious but quivering. The man had two ragged holes in his knees, a bad laceration to his forehead, broken ribs and perhaps other undesignated injuries. He started to moan and come around but was delusional and started to say over and over again, "Let me go home, I don't want to kite anymore." He tried to get up with substantial strength while several first responders held him motionless in place. Emergency services were on the scene in force in an amazingly short period of time. The man is in his mid 20's, about 160 lbs. and has about 4 to 5 years kiteboarding experience and was self-taught. He is currently in the Intensive Care Unit of the hospital and from what information is available is predicted to recover.


* lofting - involuntarily being lifted by the kite in a gust and being blown downwind

Text Copyright 2008 FKA, Inc.

[ricki]

The kiteboarder is amazingly lucky to be alive. Looking at the high velocity of his lofting and head first flight, likely impact against pavement and/or the building it is miraculous that he isn't far more grievously injured than reported. He wore no safety gear reportedly such as a helmet or impact vest that might ease the trauma of limited impacts. Such simple aids have made the difference in survival and lessening injuries in some kiteboarding loftings in the past. Despite this the, use of this simple safety gear is far from the norm currently. Helmets never were used at one time in football, these things take time unfortunately.

Responsible kiteboarders would not have been out in an area of such violent, abundant and closely spaced squalls. Unfortunately, in these early days of the sport not all participants acknowledge the severity of these hazards yet. They discount the hazard if they even consider it at all and every once in a while one is injured or sometimes even killed as a penalty for this indifference.

Such meteorological hazards are fairly easily avoided through proper Weather Planning and Monitoring. The odds of being surprised by powerful gusty wind is substantially diminished with such procedures. Risk isn't removed but when is that the case in life? Not doing proper Weather Planning and Monitoring in the face of changing weather is foolish in the extreme. It is akin to flying cross state in summer through major thunderstorms and never bothering to look at forecasts or radar. People just don't do it.

The goal is to AVOID the crisis and not attempt to correctly react once you are buried in the thick of it. Avoiding such weather crises is fairly easy to do. Reacting in the face of an emergency always has an uncertain outcome. AN IMPORTANT new free reference in Kiteboarding Weather Planning & Monitoring is ONLINE NOW H E R E (http://fksa.org/showthread.php?t=7043). I encourage everyone to read over it carefully and strive to avoid weather problems.

People also need to make Emergency procedures second nature in this sport. The time to try (and likely fail) to figure out what to do in an emergency is not while it is underway. Simple procedures exist, have been designed into gear and proper kiteboarding instruction. Kiteboarders need to thoroughly acquaint themselves with these procedures, visualize various emergency scenarios and practice them both physically and mentally until they are burned into your awareness. Holding on to your control bar in shocked amazement as you are blown across the sky and into the landscape at high speed is not a viable option. It is the response of fools and victims, core kiteboarders should not identify with these roles, right? They should know what to do and DO IT early.

Responsible kiteboarders ride for MILLIONS OF HOURS each year without incident or injury. We all need to pursue this as a hard goal. The days of yarding ourselves into harsh collisions with reality due to obvious squalls needs to vanish with a vengeance.

Best wishes for a rapid, complete recovery to this kiteboarder.

Text Copyright 2008 FKA, Inc.

[BigJmack]

I found this on another site (I don't know this guy)


THIS IS MY FRIEND FROM PENN STATE!

This morning, we talked about the video at work, and since someone else in my office meet Kevin before, we LOL about it, saying it was probably him.

Well.. 20 minutes ago I found out it was!! I will post of few pics of him if you all want.. I got this via email from one of his frat bros:

Health Status:
Stable; induced coma; unknown future

-Swelling in the brain (sub-something type of bleed)
-2-3 days analysis before we know more (CT Scan scheduled for today)
-26 stitches from center of eyebrow into scalp -Highest Rib broken -Broken Ankle -Possible Muscle Contusion in the back between Spine and Supporting Bones -Abrasions everywhere -Little Amnesia - EMT said its normal for head injuries like this. When he starts to come out of the induced coma he becomes a little combative - he's closterphobic/ doesn't know where he is

[davewolfs]

Other then the obvious of not kite surfing in conditions like this, what should someone do when in this type of situation? Can the kite even be released when being hurtled at this type of speed?

[ricki]

Other then the obvious of not kite surfing in conditions like this, what should someone do when in this type of situation? Can the kite even be released when being hurtled at this type of speed?

YES, lots of things can be done.

CRITICALLY, the best solution is to never volunteer to enter the crisis in the first place through proper Weather Planning and Monitoring (CLICK) (http://fksa.org/showthread.php?t=7043).

Failing that, physically practicing Emergency Depowering (pushing the bar all the way out or dropping it if recommended by the manufacturer with flat kites or dropping it to the leash with C kites) and mentally visualizing what you would do in response to x,y,z ROUTINELY. Touching your QR several times a session and thinking about what if can also combat brain freeze.

The time to Emergency Depower is well BEFORE any change in wind speed or temperature. Think kill the power NOT let's try to fly out of this. With a proper downwind buffer there is no reason not to do this.

If you mega screw up and you're lofted, yes, you can usually free fall to earth. Shannon Best did this in a summer squall in Delray as did another kiter not a 100 ft. from the site of this accident in the last two years in another squall. I would have from 30 ft. up but was lofted years before reliable QRs existed and my chicken loop was twisted on hard as a rock on my harness hook. I was in for the complete ride. Today, there is NO need to do this to yourself or others or our sport!

[WindRyder]

Thanks, Rick, for keeping us updated. Fay looks like she will be visiting every area of our state. Weird how the weather patterns are working to move the storm the way it is projected to.
I hope that Kevin is able to make a full recovery.
We can only be thankful that no one else was hurt during this incident.....a car accident on A1A, kite/lines tangled around bystanders, etc.....

[mocean]

hey rick ..watching the vid and reading all of the info you put up jst freak me right out,
I hope that the dude lives and heals to ride another day..
if he does not get to ride again,I hope he just lives and heals.
AJ watson

[Steve-O]

Just want to take a moment to commend Rick and the effort that he puts into this website. He is a leader in kite safety/education and I look forward to meeting him one day. I send all my students here to read about past accidents and to educate themselves regarding weather patterns and human patterns as well. Rick has found an incredible tool of communication for our sport. I am sure we will continue to learn from these events, but like he said, it will take time. As unfortunate as this accident is, hopefully it will prevent more in the future.

If you haven't seen Riding Giants, it is a must see for any serious waterman and an incredible story about taking risks. Even the best of the best can perrish doing what they love, but the bottom line is it is still a tragedy. It can shake you up, and make you think twice.

Thank you Rick for your continued service to FKSA.

[greg meintjes]

When you look at the video, there were a few other kites on the beach, which I find amazing because conditions were forecast to be dangerous throughout the day this is scary in that so many other people also showed total disregard for theirs and other persons safety as well as any ramiffications from their actions.I am also wondering if anybody actualy took the initiative and tried to dissuade any of the riders from launching their kites.

Greg

[davewolfs]

So based on the speed that he was flying if he had simply pushed the bar out the kite would have given up? Sorry for my ignorance but I am an amateur who is looking to get into this sport, I've never used any of this equipment aside from a training kite and this video simply scares me.

YES, lots of things can be done.

CRITICALLY, the best solution is to never volunteer to enter the crisis in the first place through proper Weather Planning and Monitoring (CLICK) (http://fksa.org/showthread.php?t=7043).

Failing that, physically practicing Emergency Depowering (pushing the bar all the way out or dropping it if recommended by the manufacturer with flat kites or dropping it to the leash with C kites) and mentally visualizing what you would do in response to x,y,z ROUTINELY. Touching your QR several times a session and thinking about what if can also combat brain freeze.

The time to Emergency Depower is well BEFORE any change in wind speed or temperature. Think kill the power NOT let's try to fly out of this. With a proper downwind buffer there is no reason not to do this.

If you mega screw up and you're lofted, yes, you can usually free fall to earth. Shannon Best did this in a summer squall in Delray as did another kiter not a 100 ft. from the site of this accident in the last two years in another squall. I would have from 30 ft. up but was lofted years before reliable QRs existed and my chicken loop was twisted on hard as a rock on my harness hook. I was in for the complete ride. Today, there is NO need to do this to yourself or others or our sport!

[ricki]

So based on the speed that he was flying if he had simply pushed the bar out the kite would have given up? Sorry for my ignorance but I am an amateur who is looking to get into this sport, I've never used any of this equipment aside from a training kite and this video simply scares me.

Fear is a healthy perspective for something like this, has excellent survival value! Indifference which we seem to be plagued with, tends more toward grief in wx extremes.

Big point, YOU NEVER WANT TO TRY TO DEAL WITH A LOFTING ONCE YOU ARE FLYING.

The outcome is ALWAYS uncertain and biased towards the grim side of things. You want to take great pains to never escape gravity and start what may be a one way flight downwind.

That said, what you do if you're lofted and in flight? One approach is to detach from your chicken loop and drop to the ground. This may hurt and injure you. Then again, your injuries may be less than a frontal impact against a house, car, rocks, whatever. Pushing out on your bar if you are flying a flat kite will reduce the power but I think it might glide for a while. You'll burn off forward speed but will it help? Got me, goes to kite performance and accident specifics. If it were me, I would Emergency Depower well before the first gust came. If I was already in flight, I might try small control inputs to see if the kite is maneuverable and if there is something soft to glide into. If not or if I was still rising, I might just drop and free fall to an uncertain impact without the kite.

Do you see how bogus and uncertain all this is? That is why you need to take great pains never to be lofted and particularly not lofted in a spectacular fashion (i.e. 165, 800 or even 1750 ft. horizontally as have happened already).

Were I you, I would be worried about something FAR more important. That is interviewing and selection the best professional kiteboarding instructor that I can find. You DO NOT want to take this sport on solo. The odds of trashing your gear, yourself and our access are just too high. Ideas for interviewing and evaluating instructors appear at: http://fksa.org/forumdisplay.php?f=45

[ricki]

Thanks everyone for your input and support, I really appreciate it! The next challenge is getting folks to get onboard with proper WX Planning And Monitoring. A huge dividend is less time wind waiting and suffering needless wind lust. You can zero in on useable winds, particularly frontal winds a lot more effectively than just going at it randomly. You also stand a much better chance of enjoying your session as opposed to regretting it in the ER and/or rehab.

Here's a start: http://fksa.org/showthread.php?t=7043

[OttoNP]

As always, thanks again Rick. You do so much for the safety of our sport and it is well appreciated across the country. Whenever I read of these tragic events I try to ensure that my common kiting practices would have prevented them and if not, I try to add something that would have. Most of them are from reading and collecting information from sources such as Rick.

For the benefit of others and for any criticism, a list for similar circumstance is below:

1. Do not kite in typhoon conditions of when radar map looks like that.

2. If winds came up like that while riding, I would flag kite on line and self rescue out on the water. This is a pain, but in my opinion you do not want to be on land in high gusty winds...very dangerous.

3. If on land when wind comes up, depower kite as much as possible and keep it very low, keep one hand on emergency release. It seems a lot of people consider 12:00 the safest position, I'm not sure why, maybe that gets to be where you put kite when you get going too fast while riding. Wind is lower close to ground and drag is easier to hold. Put kite as low as possible with as much depower as possible. The only advantage I can think of with the kite at 12 is that it may be less likely that you would send the kite. With the kite low, if you make a mistake or for some other reason, the kite can go rapidly to 12 or through the window causing more problems (curious what others have to say about this) Also, usually one side is safer than the other, toward the water. Be prepared to release. Try to avoid this as much as possible through weather prediction and by putting kite down in water. An alternative plan in this case of the wind getting too high while ridingis prepare to flag the kite as soon as it is over land. In this case I would have leash attached to flagging line and pull chickenloop release as soon as kite is over the beach.

4. Things happened very fast in that video, it looks like he would have only had time to release during the first lofting. After he touches the sand, there is almost no time for him to react.

5. Kites are not expensive (relative to you). You need to forgot about how much you paid....easier said then done, right? You need to be more than willing to release the kite if everything goes wrong.

I'll also add these other things I do which I think help me, once again any added thoughts are helpful
:
1. Try to get muscle memory of grabbing your release

2. Try to set up mental danger lines at your spot and what you will do at each. I think this is very important, it creates clear instructions in your mind as what to do and when. Also, by deciding ahead of time when you are not in a dangerous situation your judgement will also be much better. Give youself enough space for whatever your plan is. Below is an example of a spot I frequent:

Where the water meets the coast, there are trees and rocks. About 3 kitelines lengths out there are buoys that mark an area that power boats are supposed to stay out of. I typically ride well past that. In my mind, if I lose control and can not regain it by the time I get to the buoys, my plan is to flag the kite and self rescue. This will put my kite on the water about 2 kitelines length from shore, which should be enough to self rescue without any danger of the kite getting to the rocks/trees. If I can not flag the kite immediately after passing the buoys, I will pull the safety release. If that doesn't stop my drag, I will immediately then pull leash release. I try to practice this plan mentally. From what I gather, you can easily go 1-2 kitelines lengths before you can react, with 3 I hope that is enough. If conditions are sketchy or become sketchy, I would add more space, but I also would not be out if they are sketchy.

I travel a lot to kite, partly from my job, so I always survey the spot and try to find the line I don't want to cross. On the ocean, I want to make sure I'm fully in control before the surf. If I have to put my kite down, I would want to do it about 2 kitelines length from the surf. If I get to the surf out of control, I'm pulling all my releases.

I have been lucky so far and have never had to execute the above plans, but I feel that by having them pre-programmed in my mind it will help if they are needed. A lot of kiters typically ride past the lines where I will start to try to react, which I consider an unneeded risk. I have seen them crash and dragged on the beach/rocks while I grabbed their kites to help them. Also, I'm only saying to react if you are out of control. Obviously I come through this zone when I come in and out, I'm just on high alert when I'm in that area. If I were to lose control in that area, I would also pull releases, first chickenloop and if no effect than leash.

Also, Rick has a lot of good weather related information, but a simplified checklist that I follow right before I go is below:

1. Check buoys/windspeed
-is wind steady? watch out for gusty conditions
-any recent change in speed/direction? watch out if speed or direction recently changed

2. Check wind forecast
-is wind supposed to go up/down and when? I try to find time and speed and correlate when I'm kiting. If wind is 10 knots and supposed to go up to 25-30, I know that it is only going to keep going up. conversly, if it is 20 and supposed to go to 0 knots, I know to make sure I can get back in before it dies.
-is wind following forecast? if not, something weird may be happening

3. Check air pressure
-if air pressure is rapidly changing, watch out, something is probably going to change

4. Check radar map, watch out for anything coming in...




Sorry about the length, but I hope someone finds this helpful...

[davewolfs]

Sorry to keep asking, but when being pulled at that speed what is required to release yourself from the chicken loop? Realistically, is this even possible?

Looking at the video his hands appear to be on the bar at all times.

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid823425597/bclid877032950/bctid1743101986

My prayers and thoughts go out to the friends and family of Kevin.

[kent]

I was reading the Miami paper at breakfast. I see this guy on the front page and it kind of started to burn me up a bit. I'm in this industry and see lessons being taught in the wrong spots, crazy launches, etc. I'm thinking this guy just screwed me like all the other idiots messing up. He has taken a good portion of my business away and hurt the future potential of this sport…

Then I read the article. Sure he was out in poor conditions and probably missed his chance to ditch. Yep, he shouldn't have been out that day. I read on, and they talked about his face book page, where he went to school, and how much he enjoyed the sport. They mentioned that he had a Golden Retriever that he loved. This humanized the situation to me. It really made me think about the person. It’s pretty sad.

Not too long ago, I responded to thread on this forum about an accident that happened around Tampa. The guy was pretty bummed that I indicated that his accident was not “unavoidable” like he and others had suggested. I took a verbal lashing by the experience kiter of 2-3 years.

Nope, we don’t know it all, we are all learning despite having kitesurfed for any amount of time. Technology changes as quick as the weather so don’t be afraid to stand up and let people know when they are messing up. Let them know if there is a better way to do it. Like this forum, it’s all about disseminating information. Share your knowledge with people that need it, and take advice from those that can give it. While many may know their equipment and how to ride it like the back of their hand, it doesn’t mean that they know the weather conditions in your area or even their own. If you give some advice where it’s not wanted, you may take the tongue lashing, but if they needed it; their dog (and family) will certainly appreciate your efforts.

Before riding in a difficult area or in extreme conditions, take a second before you launch to ask yourself a few questions. Ask yourself what would happen if I hook and injure a spectator? How would I feel? What will happen to their family? What happens if I hurt myself? What will my family do? Sometimes just taking a brief minute is enough to help you make the right decision.

Super sorry to hear about all 3 accidents this week. Best wishes for those that can still recover and condolences to the family of the man that can not.

Kent

[b-rad]

What went wrong?

We were born...

I came home last night from the hospital visiting one of my buds who got bacterial menengitis from the water that almost killed him in 24hrs, attacked his brain and spinal cord...on the way home I made a 911 call at an intersection where a tahoe turned left in front of a small 2 seater...the dude was semi-unconsious laying on his airbag, searching for words...all he decided to do was drive home...

could either of them have prevented that? maybe if a dude that loves the water stayes out of it...and who doesn't drive because it's dangerous?

Kent you're right...we all have to speak up but how? How do you tell someone not to go get that awesome tropical storm session when you (we)want to? You know we all get excited when we see a storm coming our way...

So what?...25 or so people die from Fay rains...from the rain!? and we die from playing with kites?

Can you tell someone to stop smoking because it kills them...do they care? Who smokes that doesn't know it's bad for them?

Many condolences to all involved...accidents suck...

If we collectively assume responsibility for this, we are sending a mixed message just like a car commercial..."this car sure is nice but it can kill you"...

all accidents are avoidable...just don't kite...

[b-rad]

After re-reading my post it seems a bit harsh...no disrespect meant to anyone...I am an optimist but how do we keep this from happening??? How do we keep drunk drivers off the roads? How do we keep adrenaline junkies safe??? I mean, the very thing that entices us kills us...

[firstcoastkite]

First of all, I am sorry to hear about Kevin and I hope and pray that he makes a full recovery and lives to kite again one day. I am a professional kiteboarding instructor for 6 years now, and having suffered through one of the worst windless summers in years, this accident is like pouring salt on an old wound that has never healed. I live in St. Augustine, and have kited a total of 45 minutes this entire summer due to an active monsoon season and unfavorable weather patterns.

I am currently on vacation visiting family and searching for wind up in Cape Cod, Massachusetts, and saw the video of the Ft. Lauderdale lofting on the Weather Channel on JetBlue airlines flying up to Boston. I got an email from a friend in Washington about it later, so obviously this has become national news. My thoughts are with Kent in this matter in that this event greatly effects our industry, and we should be very conscious of it.

I echo other people's concerns that there were other people out that day, and their example led Kevin to decide it was a good idea to kite in dangerous conditions. Each of us needs to think about our decisions and how it affects others in this case. We all enjoy our sport 99.9% of the time in relatively safe conditions, well within the limits of our equipment. But it is that .1% of the time that we need to think about. I for one will be stressing safety release in all upcoming kiteboarding lessons this fall, with our windy season about to start in northeast Florida. Have you ever pulled your release? If you had to in a split second, would you be able to?

Paul Menta was the one who certified me to be an instructor, and he was always adamant about PRACTICING pulling your release, and even riding with your hand on the release in sketchy conditions. You simply CANNOT WAIT until the shit hits the fan to figure out how to work your safety release mechanism. It needs to be automatic, so that you know exactly what to do, and have the muscle memory programmed in case of emergency. Know your equipment, and how to use it.

That said, the best way to avoid accidents is not to put yourself in a bad situation in the first place. One of the major things that I stress in my lessons is for people to learn how to assess the conditions, and know when to go out, and when to go home. Marcus at 3-2-1 Takeoff in the Dominican Republic showed me how important it is to teach students to be able to check the weather conditions before they go out. Yes, it has been a very windless summer, but that doesn't mean you should go pump up a kite when 50 knot squalls are moving through at 60 mph. Do yourself a HUGE favor, and check the NWS/NOAA forecast, radar images, IKitesurf meters, and any/all weather indicators you can BEFORE you decide to pump up a kite and endanger yourself. Err on the side of safety, and live to kite another day.

[ricki]

So, it's ok for aircraft to fly through cumulonimbus clouds, the FAA is all wet requiring avoidance, for pilots to skip weather briefings, or oceanliners to steam into hurricanes instead of away from them, how about to send people into wild fire zones instead of the opposite direction to safety, why not go cross country hang gliding with no clue about intervening weather conditions, or towup hang gliding at noon in the Everglades when incredibly violent thermals cook off, or go kiteboarding when you know microburst are inbound, grounding 747's but it's ok to go kiting, or undertake a ski mountaineering without an idea for what weather is inbound or here's a good one, why not blow off weather information from all areas except the immediate vicinity? If there is a hurricane inbound, we'll worry about it when it arrives, advanced warning and precautions are for chumps. Who needs to take sensible precautions born of harsh knowledge gained from so many needless accidents.

A man has been hurt grievously and thankfully is recovering. Another man two days before was also lofted in another squall, he also hit buildings and pavement. Luck was not with him that day and the world is a poorer place for the loss of a neurosurgeon, someone's husband and father. Let's not blow off the harsh lessons for this and so many other hazardous weather related accidents and fatalities. Weather related kiteboarding accidents are FAR from random and almost always predictable and avoidable to varying degrees. I would ask that we not discount what these men went through and so many others saying, ignore this stuff and take your chances. You never know what sort of winds a squall will kick out to pretend otherwise is ill advised in the extreme. Knowing our environment and competently excelling in it should be a goal and source of pride in our sport. Not something to close our eyes to and say, I feel lucky today, do you?

[b-rad]

your right...and I'm with you...747's grounded but we go kite...

so who's to blame? every kite that was out on monday/tues? or just the ones who got hurt?

the best surf is when there are "no swimming, rip currents" signs posted all over the beach...the "pros" are out and Jonny surf wants to go have some fun and drowns...

This is not an argument! We feel the same! But how do we turn all this talking (9 yrs or so) into something that will save lives? Can it be done?

[ricki]

Yes, Brad, I truly believe it can be changed. There are so many other activities which started with poor practices and improved over time. Can you imagine that there once was resistance to decompression in diving?! True story, and helmets in football, use of BCs and pressure gages in SCUBA diving, redundant hang straps in hang gliding, reserve chutes in sky diving ... this could go on all night.

We learn and we can adapt. We need to incorporate weather awareness into kiteboarding culture just as the above precautions were blended into the cultures of so many other activities. How do you do that? Glad you asked ... I have lots of ideas including things that have already been launched but it would be good to hear from others on this. So, how do you think it might be done?

[b-rad]

I'm with ya...and the dude last night is alive today because of his airbag...

So how can we incorporate more weather awareness into kiting culture? Quick releases do very little imo...just like parachutes do little in aircraft...

Our sport is defined in part by the conditions...

It gets good when it gets bad...

16m kites in 12 knots is ok...(but really sucks)...everyone likes to be lit on small kites, when it's the most dangerous....so what do we do with that?

and again, who is to blame? everyone out the last few days or just the guys who got hurt?

[Steve-O]

I wouldn't feel hopeless. One must first face the fact that you are not going to get through to everyone. There will always be someone like Kevin that has likely been warned 100 times but continues to push the limits. Some survive with that attitude in life, and some don't.

Three things come to mind as an instructor in the Tampa Bay area that will have a direct impact.

1. Focus efforts on your home turf. Promote and create safe riders. Team riders and instructors for a shop should be setting the highest example for safe riding practice. Failure to comply means no more benefit or no more job. Setting the highest example that you can will make an impact on others around you.

2. Increase training beyond the hands on skills. It seems that many schools focus on the water skills with theory as a suppliment. I feel it should be the other way around. Focus on the theory and enhance with water skills. For every 1 hour of on water training, 1 hour should be spent on theory training. So 3-4 hours of private water lessons should accompany 3-4 hours of lecture.

At our shop we spend 3 hours in lecture with our students before any water skills are taught. I am considering adding an addition 2 hours of lecture completely focused on weather planning and assessment.

For those of you that teach out there, I can first hand tell you that my students appreciate this lecture and builds a strong foundation in theory. After teaching this theory based class for over a year now, 3 hours is not nearly enough.

Rick has asked to share my curriculum, and I will do so in the near future. One might ask, what can I talk to my student about for 3-5 hours, and I assure you there is plenty to talk about and plenty of information to share. Not to mention it is a win win for the school and the student financially.

3. Create a voluntary buddy system. Ask seasoned riders to be mentors to new riders. A new rider armed with all this information and some skill always has tons of questions and still needs assistance on their road to self sufficiency. Private lessons are completed but a mentor might help fill that gap in learning. Instructors are mentors already, but maybe that student feels they are troubling them. With a mentor, a new kiter has someone they can always go to for advice until they truly start understanding all the concepts. This mentor would also make efforts to keep an eye on this person for awhile and keep them from harms way. Smart newbies find a mentor naturally, but setting up a system might encourage and connect new riders with seasoned riders. Not to mention, the seasoned rider might learn something from the whole experience. This would make them question there riding practice and look at the sport from a different point of view.

Kent, we both know that incidents like this will continue. But it's sometimes in our darkest hour that we grow.

[OttoNP]

It is always hard to get accidents down to 0%, maybe impossible. Doesn't mean it is ineffective. I would guess that if you compare kiting accident percentages over the years they are going down because of the efforts of many, including Rick, to get safe information out there. Unfortunately you never know how many people read the forum warning from Rick and chose not to go out in Fay. I would guess there is a lot of people. Or how many people now check weather more because of it.

I will tell anyone I see to stop doing whatever I think is dangerous, I'd say most listen and stop, but some people just don't care - an accident in their case is simply a matter of time, which sucks...

[b-rad]

Guys, I'm not feeling hopeless...and not expecting to get fatalities down to 0% (although that would be nice)...my intentions are to help prevent this from happening again...

But, where do we draw the line? When is a cloud a squall? Sometimes that cloud passing by is nice and sometimes it can kill you- How gusty is too gusty? How big a wave is too big??????????

And Rick, sending someone into a wildfire is not the same...(I see your point) but we dont play with fire...we do play with wind...and surely nobody should encourage someone to go out in narly conditions if the're not ready...

Many, many, many kiters can't wait for the next tropical system to swing on by and give us some awesome conditions...how do we try to differentiate between good tropical systems and bad ones?




And again I ask, should everyone out that day be to blame? or just the ones who had accidents?

[OttoNP]

Everyone out on that day used poor judgement...

There is a big difference between making a judgment call on your abilities versus going out in an unpredictable storm...

Example:

if conditions are steady at 19 knots, it is probably ridable for a 9-16m kite. A beginning may decide based on their ability they should take out a 9, while an advanced rider may choose a 13.

Contrast that to the conditions during the storm, it was unpredictable. Wind could lull or gust to 60 knots. Those that went figured their abilitys were enough to react to any of those possibities; however, a sudden gust at 60 knots at the wrong time will get anyone, regardless of their abilities. You are betting that either that will not happen will you are out, or will occur at a time you can control it, a foolhardy bet....

There is some leeway if the conditions are predictable based on your skill level, but in unpredicatable weather your abilities do not matter...how do you know you have enough skill without knowing what is coming?

[ricki]

Great program Steve-O, would like to see more like out out in the world. There is so much essential theory that students should have. Some are here to teach, they should do just that.



It gets good when it gets bad...
and again, who is to blame? everyone out the last few days or just the guys who got hurt?

For my part in life and business, I really don't care much about blame. I am big on cure though, or learning from mistakes. We do need to lead by example though, even if it hurts, I feel we have that responsibility.

Regarding, "It gets good when it gets bad..." I disagree, IF we're windsurfers, the nastier the better, sans lightning as long as you and your gear can reasonably handle it.

But, were not, we're kitesurfers. If you had ever been badly lofted by an excessive gust, we have more here than many other places in this hemisphere, we wouldn't be talking about this. Like it or not, our gear is not sufficiently safe in excessive squalls winds. From all the dozens of accidents I poured over and the few I've experienced there is NO doubt in my mind about this. Add too much wind and you get lofted and/or dragged or your kite stalls, snags something on you and the unequal lines drag you off at high rate of speed. You have wind more of the year in the Keys than any other place in Florida. How could one session be worth losing your health, mobility or your life?

It is always hard to get accidents down to 0%, maybe impossible. Doesn't mean it is ineffective. I would guess that if you compare kiting accident percentages over the years they are going down because of the efforts of many, including Rick, to get safe information out there. Unfortunately you never know how many people read the forum warning from Rick and chose not to go out in Fay. I would guess there is a lot of people. Or how many people now check weather more because of it.

I will tell anyone I see to stop doing whatever I think is dangerous, I'd say most listen and stop, but some people just don't care - an accident in their case is simply a matter of time, which sucks...

I agree, accidents will never go to zero. That isn't the point in my view. It is to reduce readily avoidable accidents through reasonable procedures and judgement. We're still in the early days and there is way too much "operator error" at play in accidents. If we're on our game and go at things right, operator error should diminish somewhat or at least go below 90% of the time. I tell people the same thing and get mixed reactions. You win some and you lose some, still we need to keep trying.

[b-rad]

Hey Brad,

Rick, you do care about blame as much as you do cure...how do you know what to cure without blame?

Maybe it comes down to definitions, I see blame as going after someone or something with an intent to censure ("the rider's an idiot, don't be an idiot" I prefer "look for the following and take these steps to try to avoid it"). You are right, you have to know likely causes to develop a cure, if you are equating blame with cause.


If you had ever been badly lofted by an excessive gust, we have more here than many other places in this hemisphere, we wouldn't be talking about this.

My mistake. It's just most of the guys I meet, not all mind you, that have almost been killed or seriously injured requiring rehab/time off the water by these conditions seem to take a real hard look at hazardous weather. It takes on a whole new reality and importance but there are exceptions.



Are you trying to tell me the guys out that day didn't know the dangers? That they didn't know about an approaching storm? Of course they did...thats why they were out!

Yes, in a sense that is what I am saying. Saying a hazard exists is one thing (Storm winds are blowing, we're going), appreciating the nature of the threat and taking reasonable precautions is quite another. Here's an example, a real one. You have a tourist from the other side of the world. He doesn't know about high wind kiting, local conditions, hazards whatever. People warn him for a couple of days, he ignores them. It is blowing like stink, making the hazard apparent even to our tourist. Still, he DOESN'T APPRECIATE the nature or extent of the hazard, he blows it off. That was before he got lofted over a powerline and into the second story of a build then off to the hospital. There is a difference between acknowledging a hazard and appreciating what it can do to you and taking sensible steps to reduce the odds of getting trashed by it. This doesn't necessarily mean not riding for advanced riders but it does mean doing proper risk assessment and monitoring before and throughout the session. Remember a guy was killed just two days before in a seasonal squall not even a significant tropical storm with squalls hammering through all day long.



Look Rick, we both care about everyone's safety...I don't want to see anyone get hurt any more than you do! I just feel the real problem lies deeper within the human nature of risk/reward.

Like a lot of us, I've been doing action sports for a long time. I try to go at these activities in a thoughtful way with reasonable precautions dictated by conditions, training and good judgment. I even succeed at this, sometimes. I think a lot of this comes down to appreciating the hazard and going to the effort to reduce the odds of getting messed up through reasonable precautions. Otherwise it is like taking an ultralight up for a trip to Miami from Islamorada through something like Fay. Could be exciting and memorable but also potentially short.

[b-rad]

OttoNP makes a great point-

Predictability.

As the weather gets less and less predictable...the danger gets greater.

Is there a "Predictability Factor" in weather forecasting?

Maybe our kite forecasts could read something like: E15-20 with a P5 (good forecast) or something like that to provide even more information about the quality of wind... In FL the forecast is isolated thunderstorms everyday so we don't even read that...

[ricki]

OttoNP makes a great point-

Predictability.

As the weather gets less and less predictable...the danger gets greater.

Is there a "Predictability Factor" in weather forecasting?

Maybe our kite forecasts could read something like: E15-20 with a P5 (good forecast) or something like that to provide even more information about the quality of wind... In FL the forecast is isolated thunderstorms everyday so we don't even read that...

To some degree, things can vary enormously point to point and from one season to the next as you know. Take a look at some of these articles below, this stuff have been in circulation for many years. They help to focus in on "useable" and "unuseable" wind, the kind you want and the kind to avoid.

I don't see a day in the near term in which kitesurfers won't have to do our own weather interpretation to some degree. You can have a 3 mile diameter squall that will boost winds to 40 to 50 mph in seconds that is a point point on the area radar. Unless there are a bunch of them and even then at times in summer thermal squalls, the wx forecasters may not pick it up. So, a lot of this is up to us. Good news is that it isn't that hard or complex to form some useful impressions.

Please read over:
http://fksa.org/showthread.php?t=7043
and the top two posts at:
http://fksa.org/forumdisplay.php?f=12

Dangerous weather isn't that hard to avoid if we try.

[ricki]

Hey Brad,

I apologize, I was responding to your post above this and screwed up hitting edit instead of quote right beside it. I had no intention to mess up your original post. I've tried to recover it but can't seem to do so. I feel particularly bad as your post had to have taken some time to put together. Sorry again.

[ricki]

I hope no one else has been messed up in all this squall activity. Seems like it has been going on for days. Checkout some images through TS Fay:

http://www.fksa.org/albums/album347/1s_20080818_195717_black.sized.png
Back on the 18th as the storm was just easing over Florida. Checkout those feeder bands, packed with squalls and moving at around 50 to 60 mph over the surface. Those are holes but how fast do they close?!

http://www.fksa.org/albums/album347/Matecumbe_8_18_08_newgraph.gif
Matecumbe, August 18, 2008
This is some gusty stuff. If you were stationary as most of us are, you would feel these squalls rake over you on a regular basis. Seemed like twice an hour for a long time. Counting it looks like four times per hour or more in some cases. Even if you don't get blow into something hard, the gust lull cycles are a lot of work. Anyone up for rigging for 5 to 52 mph winds, uh what size should you setup? Kites like fairly steady winds, we make up the difference through handling and exertion for winds that are not.


http://www.fksa.org/albums/album347/2s_20080819_165655_black.png
The next day, how much time do you think they had between getting bashed by squalls in those feeder bands in the Keys. The entire state gets treated to this sort of thing as the system sides north. Any of those red splotches could toast you with a 60 mph or even higher burst. The thing about wind stations is they're stationary and read local winds. Weather moves and effects large areas. You can have far more extreme or mild wind not too far away from the stations.


http://www.fksa.org/albums/album347/Hobe_Sound_8_19_08_newgraph.gif
Hobe Sound, August 19, 2008
Yeah baby, where do I sign up to enjoy 3 to 45 mph winds with high speed direction changes? Count the number of spikes per hour and imagine having a nice kite up through all that. You can see it just yo yo'ed all day just like that.


http://www.fksa.org/albums/album347/3s_20080821_175830_black.png
Days later and further north. The eye is getting pretty large. It's a hole right? How long does it stay over you and how free is it from squalls? Hard to say.


http://www.fksa.org/albums/album347/Floridana_Beach_8_19_08_newgraph.gif
Getting up around Cocoa later in the week, still hammering through, tons of spike and lulls, for days!

Tropical systems can be a trip, just make sure it isn't to the ER. There are few real surprises with these systems as far as generating local crappy conditions. It is more a matter of how bad and how long. Bottom line, tropical systems can locally make for bad kiting weather, lots of work and a good chance of getting slammed. Out of the area of the center, there are feeder bands, sometimes hundreds of miles long or even larger. No end of embedded storms in many of these convection bands. I was almost taken out by a storm that was centered 150 miles north and on the other coast of Florida. My feeder band was about 400 miles long so a 150 mile spacing amounts to nothing. That is if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. AVOID Squalls.

[KiteworldUSA]

So, it's ok for aircraft to fly through cumulonimbus clouds, the FAA is all wet requiring avoidance, for pilots to skip weather briefings, or oceanliners to steam into hurricanes instead of away from them, how about to send people into wild fire zones instead of the opposite direction to safety, why not go cross country hang gliding with no clue about intervening weather conditions, or towup hang gliding at noon in the Everglades when incredibly violent thermals cook off, or go kiteboarding when you know microburst are inbound, grounding 747's but it's ok to go kiting, or undertake a ski mountaineering without an idea for what weather is inbound or here's a good one, why not blow off weather information from all areas except the immediate vicinity? If there is a hurricane inbound, we'll worry about it when it arrives, advanced warning and precautions are for chumps. Who needs to take sensible precautions born of harsh knowledge gained from so many needless accidents.

A man has been hurt grievously and thankfully is recovering. Another man two days before was also lofted in another squall, he also hit buildings and pavement. Luck was not with him that day and the world is a poorer place for the loss of a neurosurgeon, someone's husband and father. Let's not blow off the harsh lessons for this and so many other hazardous weather related accidents and fatalities. Weather related kiteboarding accidents are FAR from random and almost always predictable and avoidable to varying degrees. I would ask that we not discount what these men went through and so many others saying, ignore this stuff and take your chances. You never know what sort of winds a squall will kick out to pretend otherwise is ill advised in the extreme. Knowing our environment and competently excelling in it should be a goal and source of pride in our sport. Not something to close our eyes to and say, I feel lucky today, do you?

Man, I've been battling the press since this happened! Seems the overall vibe from the media is that he shouldn't have been out there.....all except for FOX News which all but condemned the sport itself!!! Sometimes we get lucky and are able to keep these stories out of the main media thanks to insiders most of the time, but this one was being broadcast in hawaii at the end of the day. We are all pulling for Kevin's speedy recovery but just remember in big conditions comes big attention. Next time I want to see a positive piece on this to counter the negative.

Fly safe,

Brian

[davewolfs]

As important as weather conditions are, In reading this I'm finding that people continually blame this accident on the weather. The harsh reality is that yes this accident could have been avoided if proper precautions were taken, but even experienced riders sometimes have complications. You cannot bank solely on being safe based on your weather conditions, especially since it is something that is completely out of our control.

Great efforts have been made on the equipment front in order to improve safety of the sport and I'm sure there is still room for improvement.

For those who are experienced, if you were faced with question "Is there room for improvement with respect to making your gear safer, i.e. a better release system" do you really feel that all riders would say that the current system in place is perfect.

Self awareness of your surroundings is extremely important and in my opinion something that all trainers should spend a great deal of time in emphasizing. I also feel that people need to start thinking a little bit deeper from an equipment stand point on areas that can be improved upon i.e. guaranteeing your release when in a position where you have been immobilized - something like this could potentially prevent injuries while adding value to the sport.

[ricki]

Good point Dave, accidents are almost always the result of a series of choices and related events. In this case however, the most overwhelming factors exceeding all others included the state of the weather and where the rider was located, how and when he responded to those changes.

The weather issue cannot be emphasized enough as I sense a good percentage of kiteboarders out there don't see all that much wrong with exposing themselves to squalls. There has been too many accidents and losses involving guys going out in violent weather to support such a practice. Consider the global attention and potential negative sentiment bonded to our sport in public perception from this one accident. Whether kiteboarders want to go out in unsafe conditions or not, public perception and perhaps policy will be influenced by how things go.

Folks looking to consider some of the factors involved in having a good session, with lower chance of incidents, accidents and threats to access might read over the following draft document. It is in revision to try to encompass all the changes brought on by flat kites vs. traditional C kites. Still, there is a lot of relevant content there. Some of those other issues you were referring to might be found there as well Dave.

http://fksa.org/showthread.php?t=2781

These guidelines were derived from the evaluation of hundreds of incidents, accidents and losses and have been revised numerous times over many years. They seem detailed but in reality this is just a portion of what is good to know. As I said, it is still being updated and is provided for informational purposes only.

You can examine quite a few other cases which have been pulled together along with some general articles with the goal of reducing accident/incident repetition and building the safety of the sport at:

http://fksa.org/forumdisplay.php?f=29
and
http://fksa.org/forumdisplay.php?f=12

All kiters need to know almost without thought how to Emergency Depower whatever kite they happen to be using at the time. They also need to be familiar with what it takes to release their kite entirely in a true crisis when Emergency Depowering fails to work. New kite? Then you need to work on this early. Quite a few guys have been in incidents involving new and not real familiar gear.

For years we used to say not rely upon quick releases in a crisis as they might not work as intended. Today, releases may be more reliable but our reactions may not have changed all that much. Often we have only seconds to act but fail to do so for a variety of reasons. The goal needs to be to avoid the emergency/crisis in the first place. Have your kite well secured and on the beach before there is any change in wind speed, direction or temperature related to the squall. If conditions are too stormy (as in a good portion of TS Fay), the holes too small or honestly exceeding your current experience and skill, blow off the session, live to kite another day.

[b-rad]

Hey Brad,

I apologize, I was responding to your post above this and screwed up hitting edit instead of quote right beside it. I had no intention to mess up your original post. I've tried to recover it but can't seem to do so. I feel particularly bad as your post had to have taken some time to put together. Sorry again.


Thats ok Rick, I'm sure it was a mistake...



I've read the above articles before...and suggested others do the same.

Obviously I think weather prediction and squall avoidance is cruital to a kiter's survival...to imply otherwise is absurd and a little offensive seeing that I have dedicated almost a decade to teaching people safety.

I'm trying to get deeper (and it's been difficult - probably due the limitations of a forum discussion) and discuss how we can help people, educate people, warn people when the traditional stuff doesn't work...because I don't think we're doing enough.

It might be time to start another thread...

[noel]

Brad,

I found this post of yours and was wondering what kiteing fatallity you are talking about.

Well, hopefully August will go down as an important month in kiting as there were some pretty bad accidents and a fatality in the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale area during tropical storm Fay. Although there was some ridable wind from the storm, there were definately some "DO NOT RIDE" conditions throuout the state that all kiters, regardless of experience, should avoid.

As a new kiter, you MUST know when to go and more importantly when to NOT go out. There is a ton of information on this forum about weather prediction and safe kiting. Take advantage of it and take a certified lessons!

We will be offerring all kinds of lesson packages, camps and cliniques this year that range from FREE to inexpensive. Take advantage, get connected, and learn how to rip for the long haul.
__________________
Your own quote is "Although there was some ridable wind from the storm, there were definately some "DO NOT RIDE" conditions throuout the state that all kiters, regardless of experience, should avoid." but I know that your instructors rode in winds gusting over 50 mph during the same storm. I thought we were trying to show by example. Guess not.

[b-rad]

Did you actually read this thread or did you just jump in to try to make your competition look bad?


Quote from noel on kiteforum:

noel Post subject: Re: More Dipshits in FloridaPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:40 am
Very Frequent Poster
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:05 pm
Posts: 635
You know, I do find it quite funny when people ride in high winds or hurricanes such as Dimitri in Hatteras or Flash in 50 knots, no one says a thing. I have kited in winds close to 50 and had fun. Of course it wasn't 20 gusting to 55. That would be pretty crazy. If you go to Maui, it's the norm to ride in 35 +. I guess we are all dipshit and kooks.






"I have kited in winds close to 50 and had fun." - yeah, that part particularly popped out to me after you attacked our instructors for doing the same thing... so are you for or against high wind kiting???

Dude you need to back off...I am over it...and do not even think of coming to Whale Harbor ever again if you keep starting crap like this with me. Mike and Shana told me they are tired of you starting crap on the forums...it makes the Otherside look bad and it does nothing good for kiting in the Keys. It has been nice and quiet around here since you have been gone...think we can keep it that way this season?

[noel]

Not trying to start anything. But what we need to do is start by setting a good example. AGREED?! What if one of your guys got hurt or worse? The guys I talked to thought it was a terrible idea. By listening to you, I hear you think the same. No? I have kited in high winds and there is nothing wrong with it. But hurricane winds are very inconsistent and as you know from experience, you have little to no control of the situation during it.

This is not a bash. You always take it that way no matter what. All I'm saying is we need to practice what we preach.

[noel]

I also ask again about the fatality you heard of. Did anyone else hear this?

I do find it crazy that in Florida during the hurricane a few surfers died and also a few swimmers but does anyone think that they will be closing the beaches to swimming and surfing. NOT!!

[BigR]

They just did an interview with Kevin on GMA for their 7:30am segment.

He said he would DEFINITELY go out again in tropical force storm winds.
The interviewer asked him twice, the weather guy looked on very disapprovingly. LOL!


Kevin also said it was 60-70 kts! LOL!

Get well dude, hopefully they won't circulate your 5 minutes of fame too much more.

[C. Moore]

Here is the video. I havent watched it yet

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5647401

OK. I just watched the video and all I have to say is WOW!! I wish he would have waited until the meds wore off and he is in a better state of mind. He will cringe when he replays this in 3 months.

[antoinedons]

still seriously stoned! or just a bloody donkey!:confused: where were his "friends" and family to warn him off and tell him not to do such an interview - this is doing wonders for our sport!

[C. Moore]

I hope he doesn't become the Jeff Spicoli of kitesurfing. It's starting to look that way after that interview.

[b-rad]

well, at least he was able to say he made a bad call and should have come in sooner...

and was able to mention that he could have released the kite...

and the weather guy did get to mention PREDICTABLE vs. UNPREDICTABLE winds...

[b-rad]

Not trying to start anything. But what we need to do is start by setting a good example. AGREED?! What if one of your guys got hurt or worse? The guys I talked to thought it was a terrible idea. By listening to you, I hear you think the same. No? I have kited in high winds and there is nothing wrong with it. But hurricane winds are very inconsistent and as you know from experience, you have little to no control of the situation during it.

This is not a bash. You always take it that way no matter what. All I'm saying is we need to practice what we preach.


If your not trying to start anything then why accuse my instructors of setting a bad example when you were writing about doing the same thing??? Because you would rather bash...

I do stand behind them...a 4 meter havok...riding around, landing loops, being safe...just in lots of wind...no I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner...but they were fine...and if you were here, you would have been out too...

[noel]

I am trying to look at the big picture now and don't want to have tunnel vision. I hope that you do too. If S. Florida were to ban kiteboarding, everyone and their brothers would be in the keys every day and/or weekend. There have already been problems before but consider the problems we would face with 50-75 kites at WH and the same at Anne's. And at low tide. KAOS!!! A few accidents and it would be over for all of us. I'm surprised no body has been seriously hurt yet like Mikey taking a face plant to 2 in. of water at WH. Alot of people thought he broke his neck but he was ok. He was lucky. But what if that weren't the case. What then?


We need to make sure this doesn't happen again. Anywhere. I don't know if I would have been out but I do know you and I are much better and way more experienced that those guys. Most if not all of those guys have less experience than Kevin.

PS - I hope Gustuv doesn't cause too much havoc on you and the keys. Good luck!

[AEsco48]

Wow, how sad... that interview almost did more harm to the sport then the actual incident.


Here is the video. I havent watched it yet

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5647401

OK. I just watched the video and all I have to say is WOW!! I wish he would have waited until the meds wore off and he is in a better state of mind. He will cringe when he replays this in 3 months.

[ricki]

There is so much other controversy coming down related to this accident. Might as well get this out now, so that we can try forget about this tragic accident sooner. That is excepting staying away from squalls, none of us should give that hard lesson up. For those that still reject this conclusion, please stay off the news when your number for a slam in comes up, ok? In time, it may just do that.

Anyway, the speed at which he flew over the cameraman defies logic that anyone might survive a near frontal impact against a hard resisting surface. Say like a wall, it just doesn't seem possible. Looking closely at the clip, he seems to have initiated a kiter loop after the first impact with his kite flying low, flat and fast to the north while arcing to the west.

Here's the theory part. His kite arc's to the south of the mid rise condo into the venturi flow between that building and the two story restaurant. It is low to the ground, perhaps even hits the ground. The windshadow of the restaurant keeps it on the ground but gusts and rotor funneling into the alley pushes the kite to the west where it eventually stops in a dead air zone.

The rider is coming in fast and low, he hits the pavement at a low angle as the kite pulls him now pretty much due west through the alley. He skids across the pavement tearing up his knees and sustaining other injuries while critically burning off the violent forward velocity. The kite pulls him into the alley and perhaps slides him up against the wall. There is no information from observers that suggests he was necessarily lofted into it despite what the media keeps implying. The fact he survived is one of the more significant points supporting this conclusion.

It is just speculation and will likely always remain so. Still, it is one way how the survival and even rapid recovery of someone going through something like this may have occurred. By all means wear a helmet, impact vest and other reasonable gear but stay away from squalls. It is pretty easy to do, if you try.

kearny TS Fay

[OttoNP]

Rick,

I'd say your right not just on the basis that he survived, but also he's injuries. If he had hit a building at that speed, especially head first, he'd have physical evidence of it. I never thought he hit the building at full speed,I guess I kind of thought everyone knew that.

[b-rad]

I agree...he would have likely died if he went directly into the building at that speed...

[BeefJerky]

I think the Kiteboarding Florida community. Got real lucky that Kevin came through this to live another day.

My problem,
Is the lack of leadership from the senior riders on the beach that day.
Someone should have made the call - no riding - period....

It's just a matter of time that it's going to happen again and again and again.
Until we have another death in South Florida...

Kevin is a nice guy. I know him.
But, Everyone in Fort Lauderdale knows that Kevin can be alittle reckless.
And from my observations. He has had past safety and rescue situations.
Neil knows this. Most of the guys know this....

The interview. WOW
What got me. Was the attitude Kevin had.
You would think he would be alittle humble from the experience. Not at all...

Kevin needs to admit. That he shouldn't have been kiting that day period..
But NO, He broadcast that he loves kiting, and will do it all over again next tropical storm!!!

Going forward...
It comes down to leadership and the need for it. On every kite beach.
I hope the guys on Fort Lauderdale come up with some guidelines soon...
The location is the focal point to our sport. Everyone is watching..

BVIChris

[oc xrated]

I think the Kiteboarding Florida community. Got real lucky that Kevin came through this to live another day.

My problem,
Is the lack of leadership from the senior riders on the beach that day.
Someone should have made the call - no riding - period....

It's just a matter of time that it's going to happen again and again and again.
Until we have another death in South Florida...

Kevin is a nice guy. I know him.
But, Everyone in Fort Lauderdale knows that Kevin can be alittle reckless.
And from my observations. He has had past safety and rescue situations.
Neil knows this. Most of the guys know this....

The interview. WOW
What got me. Was the attitude Kevin had.
You would think he would be alittle humble from the experience. Not at all...

Kevin needs to admit. That he shouldn't have been kiting that day period..
But NO, He broadcast that he loves kiting, and will do it all over again next tropical storm!!!

Going forward...
It comes down to leadership and the need for it. On every kite beach.
I hope the guys on Fort Lauderdale come up with some guidelines soon...
The location is the focal point to our sport. Everyone is watching..

BVIChris



What up Chris? How you doin? Ok, with that said, your correct, and we all know that Neil does one hell of a job policing and making sure that kite beach is a safe and enjoyable place to kite. The problem is that its a public beach with that said Neil and other veterans can only give advice in saying its not safe don't go, I for one have asked Neil a couple times if its safe to go and he'll say yes or no, if its no I don't go, 2nd guessing him Is like calling yoda a dyslexic liar. It really comes down to ego, the guys that were out there that day were super experienced, does that condone going out no, but others see it and ego gets in the way and then its the old saying if they can I can. Basically, you have to use common sense, is this weather too much for me, and i for one would much rather wait for a 25-30 knot day in marco then waste my time in squally, washer cycle waves. Too each there own. One more thang to add to this bitter diatribe, Kevin if your reading this man Im glad your ok, sorry if this stings but WTF bro? Interviewing that soon after, you couldn't have a super experienced rider go on to explain the saftey features or what exactlly happend, some of your answers were like a hamster in a wheel, they went nowhere, I love the part that said you would go out again in a tropical storm condition, thats great go ahead but if you do get hurt again and tiki beach has to suffer from your neglect, its on like donkey kong bud. I am glad your doing great and get well soon.

[thebestkite]

Again the discussion is common sense, and how to handle people that don't have it. Kevin apparently does not have that much common sense.
So let's police and talk more sense into the people we really don't want on the beach close to us.
Stay away from swimmers, respect local rules and know limitations at any given time, YOUR limitations

tx

[sweetpeach103]

Ok I wasn't going to chime in... but there's 3 points that I can't help but put out there.

One is that I find there's a major difference in what I call FORUM talk and BEACH talk. I hear all the time on the forum that the injured kiter should've done this, shouldn't be out in that and why wasn't he wearing a helmet? But on the beach, I see no one practicing their releases, lots of talk about epic storm / hurricane riding and other than Rick and I think one guy in Pompano, I've never encountered another rider wearing a helmet. I'm often tesed for wearing mine and often asked when am I gonna "outgrow" that thing. Rick talks the talk AND walks the walk. I can't say that much for most kiters I've met.

Another point is I agree with OC... beaches are public. That means no one other than officials can close down the beach. It is not on Neil's shoulders to do so just because he has a concession stand there. Though he often TRIES to give kiters his judgement, he has no authority to do anyhing about other people kiting. Unfortunately, other people's judgements often have the biggest impact on his business ... shame ;( But the reality is every beach is ALWAYS kite at your own risk. And IMO- every kiter is a leader. The stories we tell and the actions we do have influence. You think kiters should wear helmets... wear a helmet. You think storm riding is crazy, say so when someone is telling their epic story. And certainly don't be out in it yourself. Make it OK to ask someone to practice your releases without being looked at like a kook or newb.

And lastly, recognize that Kevin's accident could've happened to anybody. Experienced and skilled or not. Snowbaord park riders wear helmets, impact vests and shorts under their gear for a reason - when you are pushing your physical and mental limits, it's not a matter of IF you're are going to have an accident, but WHEN. Add to that an unpredictable element of wind for kiters, you increase your odds. So while you always have to mitigate the risks, you also need to be equipped to reduce the severity of your accident. So yes, learn to be a better read wind and weather followed by the use sound judgement. But also wear proctective gear for when shiz hits. Seems simple. But then most things are...

[bigairal]

i could not disagree with you more on your point about how kevins accident could have happened to anybody.....simply not true....first off that area was being hit by an approaching hurricane that everyone is s. fla knew about for 3 days...the weatherman in the GMA summed it up best....25- 30 knots is one thing but tropical force winds can go to 60 knots at anytime....so probably best to not kite at all...but if you do ...put your kite down in the water....dont even think about getting out of the water onto the beach knowing the winds can go to 60 knots at any second...also evidence is there that other people kited that day at that location...yet only dumbass ended up going across A1A

[ricki]

Hurricane season is on and there are some threats below the horizon perhaps moving our way. Lest the lessons of the past be forgotten or ignored, let's bring this back up to the top. Way too many people have been killed and badly injured in squalls, and in recent years too. This despite all the major depowering capablity that may or may not do you some good in wind extremes. It mattered little to quite a few injured parties.

A segment on MSNBC about the lofting:

10551394

There is a good deal more about this lofting at the start of this thread.

Learn from the past or be doomed to repeat it. These squall accidents have already be repeated way too often. Volunteers for more?


Weather planning & monitoring ideas at:
http://fksa.org/showthread.php?t=9528[/b]
.

[ricki]

Toby with Kiteforum just passed along an interview of Neil shortly following the accident. More at: http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2351479