Association Discussion

[kite-4-life]

ATTENTION:
Our area has one of the largest kiter populations in the state. We have a dozen certified instructors teaching, plus the self-learners, kooks, and cowboys, and guys teaching their friends and GF’s. At only 2 students per month each for 6 months of wind, 12 instructors teach 144 students. Add the rest and its possibly up to 200 more kiters per season entering our local scene. Most instructors teach way more than 2 students a month.
That is reality in our area.
I do not think this area will stand up to another season of this many new kiters hitting the water without an another serious accident or ban.
OUR SOLUTION:
A group of local kiters are forming a “club” or association for the Tampa Bay area. It is separate from our non-profit efforts, ASF/ K4L. They are separate entities with the same goals, and will work together to achieve these goals. This is our way to get things started now, before bans, more injuries, or bad press.
I have been overly open and straightforward about these goals for a long time, one of the few who have dedicated themselves to finding solutions, and put in the research to make it work. With support and compliance, it will work- without a doubt.
HERE’S WHAT IT IS:
There will be elected Board members for this association- with a minimum of 4 volunteer Board members to handle operations. (PRES., VP, SECRETARY, TREASURER) There’s plenty more positions to be filled, and the size of the Board will be determined by amount of interested leaders. (Basically, there’s something for everyone to do, and much help is needed to make this work) More leadership and more volunteer “teams”, mean more results/success.
Elections are open to any kiter, providing they have TIME, are capable of performing required tasks, and operate in the best interest of the association. With these “titles” will come real responsibilities, duties, and deadlines. If you are interested in being a leader, we need to know ASAP. If no one steps up and wants to lead the way, the positions will be filled by an existing ASF/K4L Board member, as they are already actively pursuing these avenues.

NOTICE OF MEETINGS:
We are going to have 3-4 meetings in the near future, beginning NEXT Sunday- March 30th at 6:00, and continuing each week or two until elections are done and guidelines finalized. (I will post a new thread with location and meeting agenda once we have a set location.) Things will be discussed and decided at these meetings, and guidelines for Tampa Bay kiting will follow. It will establish standards for this area and be a positive representation of Tampa Bay Kiteboarders to “officials” and the community, and attempt to rebuild relationships with fellow wind and wave users-Kiters, surfers, windsurfers, county officials and the general public. This will happen in the form of coordinated beach cleanups, multi-sport events, programs, & exhibitions, and working together to preserve access and re-open lost launch sites (Howard Park). We are looking to create “teams” of kiters to work on access, events, programs, public image, fundraising, etc. and utilize those smaller teams focus on those areas.
The reason for having several meetings is to allow everyone to know what’s going on, allow them to be heard, and allow them to participate in this association. If you want to complain about it do it here, because these meetings will be to get things accomplished and make decisions. We do not want to hear any “I didn’t know”,” I didn’t have a chance” or “hidden agenda” BS in the future.4 meetings in 4-8 weeks is plenty of notice- and time enough for discussion/modification.
BOARD MEMBERS WILL BE ELECTED AND A TAMPA BAY KITERS ASSOCIATION WILL BE FORMED WITHIN THE FIRST 3 MEETINGS-
GUIDELINES, SIGNS, AND AN I.D. SYSTEM WILL BE THE FIRST TASKS OF THIS BOARD. We will also assemble a team to work on access issues and I will share all the info I have so they can have every resource possible to regain access at Howard Park.
The meetings will be semi-formal and not be in a party atmosphere or location.
- There will be no alcohol at these meetings.
-The floor will be open for all to speak, one at a time, and all points discussed.
-2 or 3 initial meetings between the people who want to do something, and the other one or two to inform the ones who did nothing. The lazy ones, haters, and “rebels” will just have to live with the decisions of the majority.
-I will post the first meetings topics ASAP
-a report of the meetings will be posted

Let’s discuss some of this here in preparation of the upcoming meetings:
I.D. System:
If you don’t want a harness tag, it will be stickers and streamers or whatever else is suggested quick. No other detailed solution has been offered. If you have ideas or solutions, put them here and we will discuss it in a positive manner.
Possibles are harness tags/patches, streamers, board/car stickers, rashgards,and combinations of each. The artwork has to be copyrighted and or trademarked to make it official and non reproduceabe. A numbering system is very expensive to produce with card ID’s or stickers, so that isn’t an option at this time.
A patch is more expensive and requires sewing, but less apt to get lost or damaged than card.( It does solve the “swiping the card” scenario that Scott mentioned.(OUCH!)
Rashgards are cool, but expensive- and not everyone will wear it all the time.

How to pay for it? (major hurdle)
*Just throwing some numbers and ideas out here, don’t beat me up too bad!
- Could eventually get non-profit status and run from donations, grants, and fundraisers, but that is not a quick solution. Personally, I can’t shell it out of pocket and hope for the best or it would have already been done.
-It could be done with membership fees and is ABSOLUTELY the simplest way-( approx. 30.00 year?)- which would covers signs, ID system, membership package(shirt, stickers), association website, and possibly 1 or 2 local events and several cleanups. 10.00 more each would add more events. 10 bux less would leave off the t shirt and stickers. Remaining money goes to end of year party, or to “Friends of Ft. Desoto” from the appreciative kiter crowd.

-Whatever is done, it is handled by the treasurer and all public record. All funds go directly back into local kiteboarding.

INSTRUCTORS AND NEW KITERS: What I am suggesting is creating an association that is run by volunteer instructors and kiters. The instructors who are compliant and teaching a complete lesson will be advertised equally on an association website. Those who are not teaching a safe, complete lesson will be asked to not teach on our beaches. Someone has mentioned to me that skills testing would need to be done by someone other than the students instructor to make it fair. Although it makes it more difficult, I agree.
Self teaching and others would pretty much be forced to be with a qualified instructor to practice at our launches, and not free to practice alone without passing the basic skills test.
It grandfathers in EVERY current kiter, regardless of how they learned but it does draw the line for future prospects, and forces them to seek qualified instruction.

-There has to be a “penalty system” in place. My suggestion is to not allow problem kiters to attend, or compete in, association events, parties, etc…. It’s a start.

Hopefully this post made sense, and will generate some positive solutions to some of our problems. Constructive criticsm is encouraged and new ideas are more than welcome.

[Gui]

great initiative !

[CrazyJay]

Good job Steve. Can't wait for the first meeting.

There are 2 things I want to say:

First, If any surfers were offended by the downwinder that me and several others riders did the other day then I sincerely apologize.

Second, I applaud everyone's efforts for trying to make kiteboarding safer for bystanders. I think most riders only ride within their physical and mental capabilities. Accidents are usually caused by lack of knowledge, severe weather, or gear failure. All the signs, flags, streamers, etc are not going to change this. We cannot control the weather or a broken bridle. The one thing we CAN do is to always be on the lookout for inexperienced riders and help teach them at the beach. You can't do this behind your computer guys.

Some accidents are going to happen. PERIOD. I have been saying this for years and always catch hell for it, but you all know it is true.
Sooner or later you will get hit by a really bad gust, or break a bridle, or a chicken loop, or have a spreader bar failure. There are so many things that can go wrong.

This is why I have been saying for years that ALL RIDERS (INCLUDING SURFERS) SHOULD HAVE AT LEAST $1,000,000 IN LIABILITY INSURANCE.
Most of the people on this forum who are so "concerned" with access don't have any coverage. WHY? The fastest way to get banned is to cause damage or injury and not be able to make amends. I don't think that the county would ever ban kitesurfing if they knew that we required all riders to have $1,000,000 of coverage

Attached is a copy of my liability insurance that I have had for years. I bought it strictly to cover me and my family when kitesurfing but it covers all personal liability. It cost me an extra $375 yearly on my auto insurance. In terms of cost this is very little. How much did you spend on that last kite?

I hope all "concerned" kiters will follow this lead and post there coverage here also. If you want to us to have tags then the tags should show that we are insured.

Jayson

[Kitespear813]

I agree That we need to work together to Insure access, And I think the association is a good idea.
However I also Understand "KITE FREE" and don't like the idea of someone telling if I can ride or not. or who I can learn from.
I think there needs to be a compromise and as a newer kiter I think I can offer a unique perspective.
I have had lessons and to be honest with you I think they were way over priced and just about worthless,(Bad instructor) mainly overpriced though, and I think this is a big reason why people often do not take lessons, I am sure anyone would be willing to learn from an instructor if it were free. that being said I think it would be good start for the Association to offer some lessons or worshops that went over basic safety proceedure and right of way rules and lessons for anyone who needs thems. These don't have to be advanced lessons just "Safety lessons" if you will. Then at least if someone doesn't want to pay for "Advanced Instruction" they still have the knowledge to be safe.
My instructor did teach me safe set-up land and launch, conditions,ECT. but from there I taught myself, and safely. Just takes a little common sense.

I think that the patch system is also a good idea, so that new riders or visitors can identify the better riders or leaders But do not think they should be mandatory.
But a patch system will not eliminate the azzols that like to ride in the swim zones, and piss off surfers.They must be dealt with differently,like Criminals.

I think we have a great group of people here in Tampa and every Kiter i have ever met here has been nothing but friendly, regardless of what my skill level was.
I own a few businesses and can offer my services @ cost to help the local kiting community,
Things Like
ID lables
custom bags
Graphic Art,
Silkscreening
and custom patches.
My cost for a Multi color, iron on or sew on patch will probly surprise you.
If I can do anything to help let me know.
Sean
www.armorbags.com
www.dockslocks.com
www.armorcertkits.com

[bayflite]

i'd gladly pay 30 bucks a month 4 insurance.
it's the "riding out so far" thats got me pissed.
i don't feel i put bystanders at risk by ridin inside the markers.
i'm a carver.
last time i did a kiteloop it was by accident.
see...i have to show up to work 2morrow and do more than just type on the computer.<<<that's not a cheap shot i envy you "I.T." guys.
most rides i take in the gulf r on days that only surfers and kiters are in the water.
and i am super safe.
of course if i see swimmers i give a lot of room.
if i break a bridle i don't want 2 get snagged by a marker or have real long swim.
when was the last time you saw a bystander(not a surfer) complain ?
props to all who chime in.
l8r

[TritonKiteboarding]

Way to stick with this steve and my organizations fully support your initiative as you know, we'll be at the meeting and thanks for taking the reigns.

[kite-4-life]

I agree completely on the insurance,I wish I had it. I have been working on kiter specific insurance for instructors and kiters and have some promising leads, but they all say the same thing-get everyone on the same page and into a group (org or assn) and we will find you an underwriter that is US based.
They need a standardized basic skills test to even consider writing a policy. This could hopefully make it a lot cheaper, and include similar benefits to the IKO policy.
Group rate, group instructors insurance, health, life etc. are all real possibilities in the future.
This is getting off track from my post, but I enjoy talking about it

An association with a tag,band, whatever is there to tell new kiters "This is how we do things around here".We are safe kiters and look out for our spots.
I know a little tag wont stop an accident, but a skills test makes sure they have the skills to practice on their own.
We discuss self launching bow kites all the time- let's get out there and do it together.
Let's look at all the safety systems and make sure they are rigged right and that everyone has a QR on their leash. Let's run through some safety stuff and throw down some self rescue racing. Want you GF to learn how to launch a kite? Got it covered. Cookout? Of course! There's plenty more to a day like that and I dont wanna give away all the goodies, but thats the basic concept of a "safety day". It goes hand in hand with the rest of the stuff.
I have a lot of people ask about self rescue, this is a chance for us all to brush up on our skills and share our experience with the new guys. I think the whole run through would be 30-45 minutes per kiter out of their kiting day.

We have had an "association" here the whole time. Start plugging in a few connections and contacts here and there and you will see the potential.
All it takes is teamwork.

[<jason]

Steve...you know me bro... im there...peace

[Steve-O]

Steve!!!!

You know you have my support with this association.

Per our conversations in the past about our issues, I believe this is exactly what is needed to make any kind of progress. I commend you on taking something like this on, and I sincerely hope that you get a ton of support.

I think for anyone having reservations about an association should ask a few simple questions......

Is this association going to hurt our sport?
Is the association going to take away your enjoyment of the sport?
Is the association going to assist in making kiteboarding safer and be a leader in preserving access?

I don't think this process will be easy by any means, but an organization must be formed if we are going to make any type of progress with ideas that are brought to the table. The sign and tag idea fell apart simply due to a lack of organization.

Again, Steve, I commend you on your efforts of trying to bring this to reality. I for one would not have had the time to get something like this together, but I will have the time to support the association with whatever task I am given.

Steve-O
Watersports West

[Tom Stock]

**** the props i'll donate $100.

do u do paypal?

[kite-4-life]

Thanks everyone for the positive feedback and PM's!
I re-read the posts and here's some thoughts:
I have no doubt that you guys are all for it, we just have to organize and follow through. Then first meeting or two will be to find out who wants to lead the way- we need ya!
Kitespear, thanks for posting a newer kiters perspective, we have several things in place locally that makes lessons more affordable-
-Steve-O has a great intro class for 50 bucks at WSW. I direct all my potential students to the class- Its very thorough and convenient, and save valuable time when the winds blowing, for both instructor and student.
- Matt has covered the college guys and girls with his organizations.
-I do what I can for the rest of the newer kiters at free or reduced rates.
- Matt and I both offer free lessons to Fire, EMS,LEO's,Marine Patrol,Parks Dept. etc. to score some brownie points with the "officials".
We're not trying to tell people where they can ride or who to take lessons from, we want to point them in the right direction to a safe, complete lesson. Guys like the kook in SRQ trying to teach is dangerous, his students will unknowingly be a danger too, despite their effort to take lessons.
Bayflite is one of the safest kiters I know, and has always set a positive example as a kiter. I cant even imagine him shreddin' too close swimmers or surfers.
The only thing we can do about the swim zones is to be on our best behavior. Newer kiters should drag out away from shore to water start, especially in onshore winds. Even at the swim buoys, crashing your kite puts you in the swim area and requires either quick relaunch or self rescue to avoid a problem. IMO, new kiters should stick to flat water until they are proficient at riding upwind, relaunch, self rescue, which is a whole lot more challenging being dragged in deep water, waves, and current. Crab trap buoys are small, but can ruin your day.
There's also plenty of areas with no water users up and down the coast, and thats where can safely shred the waves. Behind the Bilmar, or at the Undertow is a bad place to do it and will most likely cause a problem. I sometimes ride at T.I., well south of the Bilmar and there's usually not many people around, so I am also guilty of riding in the zone.
We all do it and we just have to be smart about it and appear to care more than we do now.
(...And you guys thought E-Bone was long winded? Haha):p
Later

[amber]

obviously i'm in. I'm outta town from march 29th thru April 7th so i will be unable to attend the first and maybe second meeting. :( I'll get with steve before i leave and make sure he has my thoughts).

Just a summary of the products we discussed for people that either weren't around last year and have no clue what we're talking about, or for those that need a reminder...

Rash guard: $$, people wanting to wear whatever they're comfortable in to ride (t-shirt, jersey, wetsuit top, etc). people will forget them at home, ordering different sizes, etc.

bands: difficult to see from far away. people will lose them and forget them at home. differentiates levels but no obvious benefits from more than a few feet away.

Ribbons: will be attached to lines and/or kite. We all borrow each others kites. If Gabe (instructor) lets me use his kite, i will be flying with a ribbon giving the impression that i'm a much more experienced kiter which could lead to assumptions which is always potentially dangerous

patch: sewn on, so that's a plus because people couldn't forget it. If there was a visitor rider from somewhere else, it would be difficult to give them the product. Finding somewhere to sew the patch on that would still it allowed to be visible from a decent distance would be tough.

tags: tags would basically be a type of laminated luggage tag. inside card would be a bright color and there is a place on the back for emergency contact information. Tag can be attached to d-ring or spreader bar or handle on harness- riders choice. Attached with rubber loop that has a decent amount of stretch in it in case its put under stress. We trade out kites and bars and boards with others and self but most people will use the same harness all day, eliminating any need to move it.

There are of course pros and cons to ANY product, but with surveys and product research, we agreed as a group that tags would be most efficient.

[kite-4-life]

The sample card was bright and durable, the self sealing pouch was a little cheesy, but would work. (The included wide plastic strap broke and the card is gone.) IMO, it needs small metal keyrings top and bottom to keep it from flapping and getting pulled off in the water.
I like the patch idea but its too hard to see, no contact info, and a visiting kiter doesnt want to be sewing on his vacation.
About 1st meeting: It is to bring together the ones who have already been helping me with K4L, and people who want to start and LEAD an assn.(Its the same stuff with a little less board structure) I am having trouble figuring out how to do this seperately:confused:
and legally:(
any tax or non-profit experts out there?

[Galego]

how about a wrist/ankle/necklace band with bar code or RFID tag ? its small enough to not impact anything yet its connected to the rider him/herself and not a piece of gear that can be lost, stolen, borrowed, broken, forgotten. if its made stylish enough than i/people would want to wear it with pride all the time. the bar code or RFID tag could be linked to the persons name, status or level of certification and any other pertinent info. just having it on would be id enough but the info could also be read with a small hand held tag reader.

[bryanleighty]

lets keep the churning of ideas on the specifics out of this thread for now..
i think the first steps need to be taken before the wave of "whats the exact best way to implement tags/signs/etc" eats up this thread.


thats my 2 cents.

im on board for sure..

[jakester]

I KITE PRIMARILY AT SUNSET PARK, A CITY PARK IN TARPON SPRINGS.
I WAS GOING TO SUGGEST TO THE LOCAL GUYS THAT WE POST SOME
"GUIDELINES FOR SAFE KITING", SO I SUPPORT YOUR EFFORTS. IMO, GUIDELINES, RATHER THAN RULES/REGS ARE LESS INVASIVE AND WHEN A NEW KITER COMES TO THE PARK, THEY CAN BE DIRECTED TO REVIEW THE GUIDELINES B4 THEY LAUNCH. MOST OF US AT THE PARK ARE CAUTIOUS ABOUT RIDING IN THE SWIM AREA WHEN PEOPLE ARE PRESENT (AND MAKE EVERY EFFORT TO COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER WHEN THERE ARE SWIMMERS PRESENT) AND DO NOT LAUNCH AROUND THE BEACH-GOERS.
PERSONALLY, I AM NOT THE ENFORCING (COP) TYPE PERSONALITY AND I BELIEVE THAT STRICT RULES/REGS MAY EVENTUALLY LIMIT OUR FREEDOMS WITHIN THE SPORT. IN OTHER WORDS, IT WOULD BE EASIER TO SET SOME GUIDELINES FIRST AND THEN TIGHTEN THEM UP FROM THERE, AS NEEDED.
(ONCE YOU LET YOUR KIDS PLAY IN THE STREET, IT'S HARD TO TELL THEM NOT TO NOW). I AM ALL FOR SAFETY WITHIN THE SPORT AND I AM SURPRISED AT HOW MANY KITERS I HAVE MET THAT DO NOT HAVE THE BASIC SAFETY CRITERIA I LEARNED IN THE WSW SAFETY CLASS AND MY LESSONS...IF THIS IS GOING TO BE A TAMPA BAY AREA ASSOCIATION, MAYBE HAVING THE MEETING CENTRALLY LOCATED MAY BE A SUGGESTION
(CLEARWATER AREA??) THANKS FOR ALLOWING MY HUMBLE OPINION...:cool:

[amber]

quick note (hopefully)...sorry bryan, i agree with you that there are a lot of things to work out before the specifics but while everyone's thinking about it, the reason we weren't going to settle on wristbands was because although it identifies riders, people need to be able to see from a decent distance what color the rider is. That won't work with something so small.

What else needs to be done in the meantime? As for info about the association, is anyone involved in any other local associations we could learn from? I know there are sailing associations that exist and also waterski clubs... but the clubs are governed by a nonprofit board, so that makes it complicated again.

Any legal experts who can tell us the minimum that we need to do right now in order to make this legit? I think that there's always room for details but at this point, we need to keep things as SIMPLE as possible. No need to make things any more complicated than need be this early in the game...

[kite-4-life]

I hear ya Bryan, and thanks for the support!
You guys want simple, and I will TRY to deliver.
I have spent the whole weekend trying to figure out structuring and how to make this work around my own efforts, and relay the information in the proper manner. Too much or too little info could not be good, and a lot of my research is irrelevent to an association only. I have meeting 1 outline, goals and positions/duties ready to post, but these are some VERY IMPORTANT first questions when starting an association.
It boils down to forming and operating an association legally.

1. It can be run as a regular"for profit" business very easily and pay taxes, charge membership fees for operational expenses, etc., however donations and contributions are not tax deductible for donors. I say for profit because thats how IRS classifies it, if you're not exempt, you're a "for profit" business.
2. Or, you can apply for exemption and face the scrutiny of IRS of being a non-profit public charity. Its definitely not easy, but there are ENDLESS benefits to this, and would be able to seek major funding from many sources to grow the organization in all areas. I will spare you the details, but it is HUGE.Organizational structure is the same either way and requires joining many of the same associations to get maximum support.(more on this later)

Quite honestly #1 is our short term simple solution.
#2 is my personal goal and thats how I have researched it and structured it prior to these conversations. Either way, I will still pursue this on my own, or as a group if you like my ideas.
CHOICES:
*We can do #1 only if thats what is decided. Not a problem.
* We can do #1 and evolve into #2 and it is legal. If that is what is decided and eventually obtained, the "org." would absorb ALL operating expenses of an association, and be paid for with tax deductible donations, grants, fundraising, etc., resulting in many more benefits for "members", more positive programs, and increased image in the public eye.

*I will explain some of the benefits of #2 on the beach or at a meeting, it will absolutely blow your mind! Guaranteed success and MANY, MANY sources of funding on local, state, and federal level. Also many sources of donations from existing non-profits.

I know that my personal goals are not everyones and do not expect everyone to beleive in/support them. Thanks for bearing with my long winded posts!
We will figure this out. Let's try to sort out this question and I will post relevent meeting topics and outline jobs and duties.
Later

[Kitespear813]

Kite4Life,

I am involve with a local spearfishing club that, was facing many of the same issues that you are, I talked to the President who is also a lawer, and he suggested that you start here. This is a copy of all our club records and status, He said you could use some of the documents as templates to get started, as most of them are standard format. Let me know if you have any questions.

http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?action=DETFIL&inq_doc_number=N05000001991&inq_came_from=NAMFWD&cor_web_names_seq_number=0000&names_name_ind=N&names_cor_number=&names_name_seq=&names_name_ind=&names_comp_name=TEAMSPEARBOARD&names_filing_type=

[kite-4-life]

Thanks Kitespear!
I am still seeking a location for 1st meeting on Sunday. The location I had fell through.
I will not be posting further info on the forum.
Thanks for the posts, PM's, and emails. Your support is greatly appreciated!
Happy kiting!

(813) 389-3683 Steve
steve@kite4life.org

[Woodson]

Bravo to you Steve and our community for moving forward with this initiative. I am more than happy to contribute my time and money to this cause. I will be on my way back from kiting in the keys on Sunday, but will plan accordingly for all future meetings.

Again, kudos to you for putting this together.

Bryan W.

[kite-4-life]

No worries Woodson if you cant make it, we are having several meetings to determine who is interested before board elections. Please send a quick email to steve@kite4life.org to get on the mailing list. I will send a group email to confirm I got you on the list. Please include your name and phone# in the email.
Meeting is definitely on for Sunday at 6:00 PM in central or south Pinellas, location TBA.
thanks for your interest!
Steve (813) 389-3683

[kite-4-life]

Meeting confirmation

· Meeting location is: Applebee's Neighborhood Grill (http://www.yellowpages.com/info-LMS54620271/Applebees-Neighborhood-Grill)

5110 E Bay Dr
Largo, FL 33771 .)
(727) 539-6388
Located in Tri-City Plaza
(Just West of 66th St. on E. Bay Dr


Sunday March 30 at 6:00 PM
This is a KITERS ONLY meeting who want to assist in forming an association.
This is not a public meeting- we are looking for leadership. Significant others welcome at the meeting (of course), but we request that these initial meeting stay between kiters until some things are discussed and solutions are reached. We will welcome ALL kiters to future meetings, but the first few will be leadership meetings.
The meeting will about 1 1/2 hours and we will discuss as many topics as possible within the time frame.
Thanks to everyone for their interest and support!
See you there!
Steve (813) 389-3683

[kite-4-life]

Based on a few emails that came in, I will clarify this a little more-
The meeting is open to EVERYONE WHO IS A KITER, regardless of skill level. We will be hearing from instructors, veterans, intermediates, and newer kiters, which will give us a well rounded look at our local scene, and a fresh perspective on possible solutions. You are welcome to order food & drinks during the discussion and there will certainly be a "rehydration session" at the bar after the meeting is over.
The response has been very good, so we expect to have many motivated kiters there who want to help. Please arrive by 6:00 so we can get started, there is a ton of info to cover in this first meeting, and many opinions to hear.
Looking forward to it! See you there!!!
Steve (813) 389-3683