Dumb move of the day - Sunday at EB

[bryanleighty]

kid on red 2008 11m waroo letting his friend try out his kite. I was on water watching the show.. launching from shoreline with kite towards water (only smart thing done)..

guy obviously has no idea how to fly a kite and it goes up, then down, then relaunch and it goes up to 12...then dives directly towards the road, does at least 2 complete loops, scatters people and the beach and finally flags out to safety.

i ride up and ask the kid that owns the kite (ive seen him trying to ride the last couple times i've been out.. new rider..lots of walks up the beach)..

i say something like "are you giving a lesson?" he says "no" .. i say "does he know how to fly a kite?".. he says "ya, but not one this big".. i say "do not launch him again.. very unsafe"... and i ride off and kept a watch.

if the owner of kite is reading this, you have to realize how absolutely stupid that was. if the guy you launched didnt know how to flag out the kite or if the wind came up he would have been seriously hurt. not to mention the ton of people on the beach.. stunts like that risk the beach access for all of us.

Please dont ever do that again.. if your friend took lessons and you want to have him demo your kite.. or even if you are going to be one of those hardasses that insists on not taking lessons.. you launch the kite and you both must absolutely walk out to the sandbar.. takes a few minutes, but 10000% safer for everyone..

sorry to sound like a prick, but you really could have hurt your friend or someone on the beach.

Everyone's primary concern is for safety and keep our riding areas open..

[Skyway Scott]

Ughh... dat don't sound two smart.

Well, smartest move of the day -- Mike Hall took his girlfriend downwind of everyone (except Ross, Adam, Bill and I who ride DW away from the crowd these days) to train her. Kudos to Mike. Mike gave his lesson where all lessons out there should be given, imo. Thanks for thinking of your girl and others and making the effort to positively avoiding a tangle up Mike (impossible to tangle with no one around). :p

[LSUkiter]

I actually saw that. Unfortunately I had pre-promised my girlfriend about a week ago that I'd go on a bike ride with her at the park(of course it ended up being on one of the best kite days in a while), so I wasn't out on the water. After our ride, we took the car down to EB to check out how many people were on the water. I'm a new rider, and just finishing up my lessons, so this was her first time actually going with me and seeing kiteboarding live and in person other than the videos she sees me watch.
So we're sitting in the car and I'm explaining everything to her, and she's asking questions. We see this guy tryin to launch and as you described its not going too good, and I'm explaining launching and landing to her cause one day I'm sure she'll have to help me launch. Suddenly this kite loops a couple times uncontrollably and scatters people.
What's the end result? She's freaked out that she could screw up launching me one day, and I'm sure the first time we're at the beach together and I need a launch, that's the first memory she'll have.
At least she knows it was just a screw up and that it doesn't translate into kiting=death

[toby wilson]

Stevil Kenevil, you're my hero!!!

But seriously, Steve is right, there are WAY too many instructors in this area for kooks to be going out and learning on their own or from their friends. Seek out lessons and live to kite another day. :)

[Steve-O]

Guys in questions came to the WSW safety class and show serious signs of wanting to learn the fundamentals of the sport. I think they are in alot better shape about the sport mentally, and have really good attitudes toward learning and wanting to be safe. We can only hope the lessons I taught them they will use.

[Danimal8199]

I agree that these guys need to be talked to, but lets try to keep it somewhat diplomatic as to help nurse these guys in the right direction rather than alienating them from wanting to enjoy this sport.

Good work though at recognizing and taking action Bryan and Steve-O, this is what needs to happen so thanks!

[Skyway Scott]

I agree Danimal.
I am really glad that so many people are involved with wanting to keep things safe. I could tell many were concerned about it at EB yesterday and most riders were being pretty cool. At the same time, I think this is an exceptionally tricky topic (use of forum to call out) and could blow up in our faces or get negative and non-productive pretty quickly if it turns into a finger pointing contest, especially towards newbies. My main concern is that we might make newbies feel like if they screw up even once, our first response will be to grill them on the forum. That makes them less likely to ask for help or maybe try to learn on their own (maybe).
I also have concerns about "who taught you anyways?" and other stuff like that. I think this rider was in the wrong, but it sounds like he could have been talked to (grilled) at the beach. I guess he was, so I am sort of not seeing the point in posting, unless he is a repeat offender and we sort of know it's gonna happen again.

Can I suggest we try to work most stuff out at the launch site, that day? If the rider becomes a "repeat offender" over time, then maybe mentioning it on here is a good idea (I don't know). I am just concerned we might start listing every bad thing we see. One concern over that is the press and anyone else can easily hop on here and throw that stuff right back in our faces, or might get a one-sided view. I know on KF a few people now think all FL riders are wankers. That's not what I think we should do, personally.
I know Jim Wilson (Ft DeSoto) reads this forum, which is in our favor. But, it could turn on us if someone wanted to paint us in the wrong light. We have PMs and phones and stuff (again, just ideas) I have real concerns over internet frenzy as opposed to face to face. There is absolutely no substitute for face to face, imo.

In addition, I still think that it's our veteran riders that will most likely always be the hardest to deal with. I can't help but think a newbie is easier to target, so we do it. I happen to think the beach (especially with downwinders) is our biggest weakness right now, if riders cruise down the beach and repeatedly stay/ get close to shore.
I have and always will think that the beach is the first place that we will lose. This is the type of thing I don't want to be right on, btw.
But it's not hard to screw up and hit a person with your board when riding close on a DW or eventually clothes-line a person walking on the shoreline if you do enough tricks close to shore and dump the kite. It's coming up on March (spring break and seabreezes), and it doesn't take a genius to see how tons of spring breakers and guys showing off right next to them might turn out.

Do we have any agreements whatsoever about staying away from shore? Or our we just blowing it off?

Anyway, glad you guys care. My thoughts are just that, I am not ever going to pretend that I know the answers on how to do this "right". I do know having some guys that are concerned along with 95% of the riders being safe is far better than most areas in the country, so we have a really good start.

[bryanleighty]

"monetarily challenged" individuals can call me- I will give them a safe lesson at little or no cost, so the costs of lessons is no longer an issue.


Bravo!


The only other kooky behavior to report is a LOT of people doing transitions and jumps within 20' of shoreline. (we definitely need to work on that one.) Newbies should be practicing jumps out towards the sandbar, "experts" should be out 100 yards or so.
Be safe

I am the first to admit that I had a few too-close to the shore jumps yesterday.. it didnt seem like it on take off but I hit them as floaters more than boosters and I ended up way too close.. sorry if I got in anyones way.

The couple instances aside, I still think I am very conscious of riders trying to leave the beach .. we MUST give them right of way. I came in twice yesterday and each time I went out (so 3 times total) I had to wait for guys as they rode up to the shoreline, did a quick jump transition right behind me where i had to move my kite clear across the window fully onshore to avoid being tangled. Not Cool.

[bryanleighty]

I agree Danimal.
I think this rider was in the wrong, but it sounds like he could have been talked to (grilled) at the beach. I guess he was, so I am sort of not seeing the point in posting, unless he is a repeat offender and we sort of know it's gonna happen again.


I should have put down my kite and said more.. but I was pretty pissed and admit that I am not that great at keeping my cool when I see stuff like this.

I like to say that I would be calm and reasonable.. but I know that when I saw it happen my blood began to boil a bit.

Next time I will put down my kite.. see if I can grab some others to help me approach him.. maybe an instructor so that if the questions of lessons come up they can jump in and see what can be worked out.

I know that I've seen stuff like this go down and Ive seen guys on the beach offer immediate help/lessons and work with getting the rider up and going that day ..free of charge.. and everyone walks away feeling better.

if anyone finds out who the guy is, hopefully they can get a hold of them and figure out a way to get the new rider on the water in the safest way possible.

[<jason]

here's my dumb move of the day...
back story ...
As soon as the wind started picking up i was riding up wind like a mofo...(hard to do on my french fry board) put my kite down for a while after trying a jibe w/a underhand loop kinda(not sure what to call it) and bashing the hell outa my leg.... so around 5:00 i decided to get a quick couple of tacks
but i couldnt get up on a plane...(wind had died) well not with my board. So im walking back up the beach and this woman says watch out...! your going to trip over my lines....and she goes behind me... so i look to see what shes doing for 2 seconds, I turn around and my kites wrapping up with someone else's....:eek:
he pulled the qr and fed his bar through my lines ... but damn that almost sucked bigtime ....

[Skyway Scott]

Cool Bryan. I am just glad you care. We have a lot of really good people here and this stuff will work out. It's my feeling that it always works better face to face, for so many reasons.
Yikes, been there, done that. Brain fart :)
Well, Billy lent me his brand new Ion3 to try out. Here I am, feeling unworthy of being on "the" kite, but just don't want to make an ass of myself, ya' know?
Okay, after I have it for all of 30 seconds and still on shore (man it was crowded) I come unhooked, one handed (board in other hand) and basically get semi worked and almost hit a car.
Yep, I sure made "the man's" kite look good. :rolleyes:

[toby wilson]

First off, I don't give a crap what any rider ANYWHERE else in the world THINKS of Florida kiters. Florida kiters, especially the ones in this area are the best bunch of people I know of and would want to be associated with, if they are insulting Florida kiters then they are insulting my second 'family' so to speak. So if some idiots think we are wankers they can kiss my white ass because I really don't care about their perception of us. Sounds like the real drama is out there on KF...think about it...who are the real wankers???

That being said, I think that people should be called out in as many ways as possible if they are exhibiting this type of dangerous behavior. I am all for "being cool" and "sharing the stoke" but I think it takes a real wake up call for people that do this kind of stuff to finally realize how stupid they are being. Steve-O obviously knows these people, it sounds like there is a pattern that has developed with these two and newbs or pros it doesn't matter, they are risking injury or death to themselves or others, everyone's beach access, negative press of our sport, etc by doing things like this.

Do I think that every last person should be called out at the beach or on the forum because they had a kitemare or made a mistake? NO. ESPECIALLY the newer riders should be given a LOT of slack and I think that after you have been up and riding proficiently for a year or so we tend to get amnesia about about how hard it was for all of us when we were just learning. And these days it is even harder with all of the crowds. So I DO think that in MOST cases we need to help and offer our support to people learning and learning the RIGHT way, by taking lessons. That is how most of us have done it and the real way to gain the respect of the other kiters is to PUT YOUR TIME IN like all of the rest of us have. But blatant stupidity deserves to be called out in and I am glad that Bryan (and Steve-O) did it.

[Skyway Scott]

Only a few guys on KF said that. I think it's because it was implied we don't care and not that many were posting. So some people ran with it. That phenomena does matter to me because it illustrates the kind of conclusions that can be reached by some without having all the information, especially if it's hinted that no one cares or we are stupid or whatever.
It matters because if a person with any authority to help or hurt (legally or otherwise) reads it, we look bad and that may affect their decision to work with us. This stuff isn't written in a total vacuum. Just my opinion again.

Ultimately whatever the group consensus, I am mainly hoping it be applied even handedly. If most people think naming names will guarantee I can still ride St. Pete beach next year, I will participate. Thanks for the inputs Toby (can I have my bar before....... lol :) )

[toby wilson]

I already took a jigsaw to it Scott. ;)

I don't think name-dropping is cool but letting one know that their actions won't be tolerated by posting 'the two guys on the 11M Waroo'...It gets the point across to them that what they did was dangerous but doesn't point the finger at their NAME on the forum persay. It is a learning process and learning how to kite involves learning when you did something wrong IMO.

On a side note, I DID see that F#%king idiot on the 16M Thruster make a couple of stupid moves again yesterday too... :)

[toby wilson]

Yeah, I DID appear to be a little brown in the trousers that day but Stevil had it comin' to him!!! Catch me if you can...BIATCH!!! VROOM!!! VROOM!!!

[Tom Stock]

Dude where did you get wonder woman's mini bike?

[toby wilson]

I traded 3 slices of a stale pizza with that dude from the beach with the rhinestone flip flops.

[Tom Stock]

lol holy sh1t that was great

[oldschool]

So I am at my usual spot at Siesta and I see this small blue RRD at the smallest (least wide) part of the north end of the beach crashing next to the water, in the water, next to walkers (most crowded weekend - we had hundreds of beach walking tourists)

Anyway, I haul my old wrinkly ass up there and here are these two kooks, look to be in their 40s, both seem schnockered and one is wearing a hillbilly straw-hat (no shit)

Apparently the one dude who owns the new hyper type has been letting people fly his LF 3m trainer and then take control of the 8 or 9m RRD - I tell him he should pack it in - he and his buddy get in my face and since I am an OG (and apparently not very threatening looking) they tell me where to shove my comments

I swear if I had a knife I would have poked his freaking kite

Anyway, I gotta run to the club, gonna get doped up and huge and then kick some ass next time

OS/SRQ/an OG who at least tried

[Skyway Scott]

I agree, for the most part most of us are friends. That's why I debated this post. At some point you have to put principle before being liked by everyone though. Ultimately I got into to kiting to kite, not be everyone's friend.

I know what that feels like Oldschool, trust me.
What really sucks is when you do that respectfully a few times and get blown off or have the story twisted around to the point where you are somehow the bad guy for wanting to preserve access. I and others have approached a few of the same riders regarding riding in swim zones (more importantly close to swimmers and near beach-goers) and have been blown off or just given lip service to appease us. These same riders have continued the behavior that they said they would not do.
The particular behavior that concerns me is riding close to shore in areas with swimmers. As we have seen recently, this can very easily lead to bans. If I originally didn't know this was possible (it happened at Ft. DeSoto about 4 years ago) I would have never even cared or brought up the issue. But, it's obvious that riding in swim zones full of people is a bad idea, that a few riders in particular have been talked to, PM'd etc. going back a ways, and that things are still basically the same in terms of continuing to ride close to shore within swim zones along the entire beach.

I feel that talking with them hasn't achieved much and gave up pretty much after hearing and reading their response. Because of this, I have reached out for help from some other guys I respect locally and am hoping they can talk these guys into staying a safe distance from swimmers and shore.

I and am going to wait to see if their efforts have an effect on the rider(s). In a few weeks if nothing has changed, I will make it abundantly clear who I am talking about and will be sorely disappointed if guys like Neil shy away or take sides based on "rider profile/friend status" as opposed to the facts and what's right.
Especially in light of his recent statements on KiteForum and the recent losses of access in areas like Pompano and possibly Lauderdale.

I guess we will see. I gave this approach a lot of thought before this post.
I have recently seen a conflict on Kiteforum about someone riding in swim zones and realize that he said/he said is easy to squirm out of without some sort of proof. So, as dumb as I feel doing it, I will have a video camera on me at all times when at the beach. It's not my sole intent to make a person look bad and my clip if made won't be a 2 second clip "catching someone" near shore. No, it will be many minutes long, showing a clear behavior. My goal is to have the behavior stop. I don't dislike or like those involved any more than any other rider.
Yesterday I could have made a very long tape, btw, but opted not to without prior warning.
So, if you end up on here on film, it's your fault for putting our access at risk. We clearly have several riders throughout the state saying "post it", including Neil, and I will post it in efforts to have the behavior stop. I personally am not really into naming names and consider it a last resort.
I won't however, just sit and watch as people risk access to a beach I walked as a child, especially in light of the current bans.
I still can't believe some guys have to be dealt with in this fashion, but so be it.

[poop miller]

I am a new rider who took lessons. I was flying the green North rebel on sunday. I am not 100% sure how kiting etiquette goes so feel free to call me out if you see me doing something stupid. I rather hear it from someone who knows what they are talking about than get hurt or get someone else hurt.

[toby wilson]

Kiting etiquette rule #1:

Don't walk down the mangrove path at the backside to take a poop, you might regret it.

[TritonKiteboarding]

Just so you don't have to be calling anyone out a few weeks down the line, i'm about 95% sure your referring to myself and my fellow eckerd college kiteboarders. My number is 203 918 6637, i don't believe anymore in getting forum ****ed or doing it to anyone else, you never have called me, pm'd me or emailed me. I would very much like to talk about this situation with you in a civilized manor preferably face to face or on the phone. If its not myself or my riders I am sorely mistaken and apologize for responding.
-Matthew Sexton
sextonmg@eckerd.edu
(203) 918 6637 (Cell)
(727) 368 1069 (Home)
President/ co-founder
Eckerd College Kite Club



I agree, for the most part most of us are friends. That's why I debated this post. At some point you have to put principle before being liked by everyone though. Ultimately I got into to kiting to kite, not be everyone's friend.

I know what that feels like Oldschool, trust me.
What really sucks is when you do that respectfully a few times and get blown off or have the story twisted around to the point where you are somehow the bad guy for wanting to preserve access. I and others have approached a few of the same riders regarding riding in swim zones (more importantly close to swimmers and near beach-goers) and have been blown off or just given lip service to appease us. These same riders have continued the behavior that they said they would not do.
The particular behavior that concerns me is riding close to shore in areas with swimmers. As we have seen recently, this can very easily lead to bans. If I originally didn't know this was possible (it happened at Ft. DeSoto about 4 years ago) I would have never even cared or brought up the issue. But, it's obvious that riding in swim zones full of people is a bad idea, that a few riders in particular have been talked to, PM'd etc. going back a ways, and that things are still basically the same in terms of continuing to ride close to shore within swim zones along the entire beach.

I feel that talking with them hasn't achieved much and gave up pretty much after hearing and reading their response. Because of this, I have reached out for help from some other guys I respect locally and am hoping they can talk these guys into staying a safe distance from swimmers and shore.

I and am going to wait to see if their efforts have an effect on the rider(s). In a few weeks if nothing has changed, I will make it abundantly clear who I am talking about and will be sorely disappointed if guys like Neil shy away or take sides based on "rider profile/friend status" as opposed to the facts and what's right.
Especially in light of his recent statements on KiteForum and the recent losses of access in areas like Pompano and possibly Lauderdale.

I guess we will see. I gave this approach a lot of thought before this post.
I have recently seen a conflict on Kiteforum about someone riding in swim zones and realize that he said/he said is easy to squirm out of without some sort of proof. So, as dumb as I feel doing it, I will have a video camera on me at all times when at the beach. It's not my sole intent to make a person look bad and my clip if made won't be a 2 second clip "catching someone" near shore. No, it will be many minutes long, showing a clear behavior. My goal is to have the behavior stop. I don't dislike or like those involved any more than any other rider.
Yesterday I could have made a very long tape, btw, but opted not to without prior warning.
So, if you end up on here on film, it's your fault for putting our access at risk. We clearly have several riders throughout the state saying "post it", including Neil, and I will post it in efforts to have the behavior stop. I personally am not really into naming names and consider it a last resort.
I won't however, just sit and watch as people risk access to a beach I walked as a child, especially in light of the current bans.
I still can't believe some guys have to be dealt with in this fashion, but so be it.

[TritonKiteboarding]

Just call me scott. Don't want to argue.

[TritonKiteboarding]

you responded to the last post in seconds, i'm sitting by my phone and don't have your number, but would like to talk, mine is their laid out, please contact me

[TritonKiteboarding]

or just erase your posts

[Tom Stock]

... if it's waves these people wanted (whoever it was), the waves are BETTER 100yards out at John's Pass right where the rollers are coming into shallow water from the deep channel. They are generally head high with big steep faces and no surfers are gonna go out there because of the current.

Riding knee high shore break isn't any fun.

Of course no chicks watching in the channel but I am not looking for attention from beach goers so I don't care about that part anyway. :D

Based on Scott's post, sounds like if you're not riding in the swim areas and stuff it doesn't really matter what you are doing, so you would have nothing to be concerned about.

[TritonKiteboarding]

Fully understood there is always a possibility for unseen circumstances like tough to see swimmers, surfers, and bathers. I do my best to mediate between reckless riders and the safe techniques, i was riding about half way in between swim zone and shore yesterday slowly and without doing freestyle. I don't believe riders should ride near shore and i know there are better places for waves. I'll take the weight of it on my shoulders and make it a mission of mine to ensure our access is preserved and our (meaning greater tampa area) reckless/ potentially dangerous riders are called out. Simply put i will do it to their face and continue trying to help our community as i have been since I became a part of it 3 years ago.

[Tom Stock]

Just wanted to say... I don't care about people riding near shore, just where they do it.

We all cruise the shoreline once in awhile, it's no lie and I'm no angel either. But cruising the shore line at big beach or shell island for example is different than doing it at PAG, T.I., or sunset. Basically if there are kids or people anywhere near the shoreline or in the water I stay the hell away from them. Bans aside, the last thing I need is a lawsuit or the lifelong feeling of guilt when my lines drown an 8yr old. I also don't want a group beat down when I tangle with a surfer. There is no stoke to share when you wrap your lines around their neck. I can't tell you how many times I've broken a line on a botched jump or kite loop and had to swim in, lines dragging, kite tumbling through the surf and been crapping my pants as I am approaching a bunch of young swimmers. Wrapping my lines as fast as I can hoping to god the kite doesn't launch and start looping before I can wrap 20 feet of one line.

When I was young I didn't give a crap about anything ... kids were a nuisance. I drove fast and didn't give a f@#$.

Then a friend of mine hit and killed an 8yr old when he was driving too fast. He had to face the parents, and the kid had a brother and sister. He still has trouble dealing with it. That was 20 years ago.

So hey use good judgment and be accountable for your actions.

Sounds like we are all working on this.

[Skyway Scott]

No one protecting our spots or not shredding near people should have had any cause for concern. It definitely was not my intent to FF anyone. That's exactly why I made the post as a forewarning and asked two other locals to speak with the riders in question (and express my intent) about just consistently staying a safe distance from shore. It was not my intent to catch someone off guard. Just the opposite. I think it's pretty obvious.

I am only concerned with people riding close to bathers, etc. A strictly enforced swim zone or no launching at all is what the police will end up doing, and wasn't my intent. My concern has always been about riding too close to people. For some reason, some people think that 20 feet is cool and that they are always in control. Well, it is pretty obvious that doing that can lead to bans and we actually had a ban in Ft. DeSoto due to riding in a swim zone.

After reading Neil's post and other's posts on the subject, it seemed a video tape of behavior was possibly the most impartial and "honest" way to handle self-policing. Video doesn't lie. Neil, Rick and others seemed pretty fired up about self policing and I obviously don't want to lose spots. So to me, the video seemed like the most impartial way to show behavior. It's really the only alternative to he said/he said, unless you want to listen to one guy lie and watch the other turn blue in the face.

While talking to people about this today, I realized that every time a real issue about safety or self-policing comes to the forefront here locally, people usually draw lines in the sand based on friendships, not based on issues. Either that or more likely, they just sit back, watch, and say nothing. This means it usually gets pretty twisted and nothing ever gets done. So, what's the point? We never even got a sign up at EB and we actually agreed on that one, so it's hard to believe any good is going to come out of attempting to change someone's behavior.

[Unimog Bob]

When it comes right down to it it doesn't matter what one says or wants to see happen, it is actions that tell the story. If you're not riding and ripping it up in the swim area to show off for the tourists and hot chicks no one is going to call you out. If spring break rolls around and someone is throwing it down twenty feet from shore and a kid gets whacked with a board or granny gets wrapped up it won't matter at all how much anyone says they are all about safety.

I sure don't want to limit the fun or kill the stoke. Lets just follow some reasonable guidelines. I'd propose something along the lines of: When kiting in the gulf and there are other non kiting beach goers present all riding other than launching and landing should take place at least two kite line lengths (150') from the waters edge. inside the 150' mark a rider should be moving perpendicular to the shore in a controlled manner.

Even near sighted hot chicks can see you 150' out. That way when you miss that handle pass you can just worry about the beating the kite is going to give you, not the one your going to take from your bros when you screw our access.

Bob

[toby wilson]

So I am at my usual spot at Siesta and I see this small blue RRD at the smallest (least wide) part of the north end of the beach crashing next to the water, in the water, next to walkers (most crowded weekend - we had hundreds of beach walking tourists)

Anyway, I haul my old wrinkly ass up there and here are these two kooks, look to be in their 40s, both seem schnockered and one is wearing a hillbilly straw-hat (no shit)

Apparently the one dude who owns the new hyper type has been letting people fly his LF 3m trainer and then take control of the 8 or 9m RRD - I tell him he should pack it in - he and his buddy get in my face and since I am an OG (and apparently not very threatening looking) they tell me where to shove my comments

I swear if I had a knife I would have poked his freaking kite

Anyway, I gotta run to the club, gonna get doped up and huge and then kick some ass next time

OS/SRQ/an OG who at least tried

OS, I think I know who you are talking about. Is this him???

[Steve-O]

Ok, so this thread has moved towards issues along the beach. I love riding the beaches, especially in the spring. Tons of fun.

In a nutshell we need to unite as one and be a voice. An organization needs to be formed to make important decisions and be a liason between public officials. The more proactive we are now, the better off we will be. As a sport, we have issues that must be dealt with. For example, we are working with Honeymoon State Park to insure they know of our intentions and have laid out guidelines in advance that we as riders intend to follow. The guidelines will help the lifeguards educate new riders and empower them to deal with offenders that don't follow the guidelines. It is alot easier for a lifeguard to approach a kiter in question and say "these guidelines were developed by kiters for the safety of everyone". The park officials appreciate that we are taking the first step. It goes along way in building a relationship.

Furthermore, we are working to open up access again at Howard Park. It may be a certification only location, but so be it, it is better than having no access at all. We will see how that all goes, it will take time.


Finally, to get back to this original thread, I spoke with the kiter today on the phone. We had an excellent conversation and he feels a bit overwhelmed about all that goes into this sport. I offered him to sit in on my safety class at the shop. I believe he and his friend are going to attend. I apologized for being harsh, but I clearly wanted to express that we are serious about safety and we will do whatever it takes to protect our access. We all make mistakes as newbies, and that is understood, but certain actions are not acceptable. He clearly realized that passing a kite, in high winds at a crowded spot, to someone that has never flown a large kite, is now a bad idea. He learned from that mistake. Luckily, nothing bad happened, but we all know luck runs out. I hope by working with him in the safety class, that he will be able to make wiser decisions in the future and keep himself and his friend out of harms way.

I know this is long, but Chris Kenny has been in the shop all this week, and he is getting is kite fixed, and plans to be on the water in maybe 1-2 months. Full recovery. Congrats Chris and looking forward to sharing that first day back on the water with ya.

IM OUT!!!!

[Tom Stock]

Take your org, develop rules for the beaches, get agreement from the city beaches and ask them to be enforced on an individual basis. If a Jet Skier is busting through the swim areas you can bet he's going to get fined. Same should happen to kiters who are the subject of complaints about riding in the swim zone. Launching and landing excluded of course.

[bryanleighty]

fyi on the initial topic of discussion..
I have had a pm conversation with the owner of the kite from my post and he understands completely what he did and knows it was a very poor decision.

definitely something that we are all guilty of at one time or at many, many times.. I fall somewhere in the middle of that group.

And he let me know that he would have rather been talked to on the the beach than called out on a forum post and I agree 100% that I should have put my kite down and talked to him. That is completely my fault for not following up in that manner..and I will try to do the proper thing next time.

We can all learn a little something every day cant we?

-b

[toby wilson]

Please correct me if I am wrong Steve, but wasn't setting up this system what the organization kite-4-life is supposed to be?

I know Stevil Kenevil Sadler has been working very hard behind the scenes to set up both a regulatory system for our area as well as a non-profit organization targeting getting children (of the appropriate age of course) involved in kiting as well as other sports. I believe he was also targeting some other groups and trying to help them as well with kite-4-life and has been doing so for quite a while now. I also know he is looking for volunteers to help get this thing going and has most of the pieces in place along with some very good contacts/relationships already made. Give him a ring, his celly is 813-389-3683. I am more than willing to help but I do recall all of his efforts and ideas being shot down in the past after we had 'safety meetings', debated on the forum about it, etc. Lets put our money where our mouths are and either shut up or put up and join the cause so we can agree on a set of rules/regulations, put this forum drama to rest and go ride!!!

[Skyway Scott]

Well, I personally have contacted the people that I was going to call out, if it proved necessary. I have talked with a few of them over time and thought we had an agreement about maintaining a safe riding distance at the beaches. We did have an agreement. But, I now realize that without numbers in the agreement, it's possible that the term "riding safely from shore" can actually mean quite different things to different people. Some riders believe that staying 20 feet away from a bather is okay, others think we need to stay out of the marked areas entirely, and some have views in the middle. These different views appear to exist everywhere, not just here.

For now in terms of safely riding the beaches, it's basically like we have agreed in theory to a speed limit, but with no actual number tied to the limit. We just all set our own limit. It's basically pointless as a community standard. Does PASA or IKO have any recommendations in this regard (nearness to shore)?
Can we all agree to a distance from shore? Something not hinging on seeing someone? Maybe the podcast with Rick, Neil and others will give us some guidelines.

Assuming the above goes nowhere (which I hope is not the case), one thing that the local kiting community can do and is doing, regardless of agreement and participation among all, is to actively communicate with local authorities about our concerns and our intentions. This has proven very effective at Ft. DeSoto and seems like it is working out well for others, especially in the Park system where one "head guy/gal" is ultimately responsible for the park and has authority within its borders. It sounds like guys up North are making really good progress with the rangers up there. Nice.

It's my impression that most of the work at Ft. DeSoto was done a few years back by people like Jayson, Eagle and myself. Now all anyone has to do is just be polite and ask for Jim, is my take. Even when a permit is needed, I wouldn't be surprised if it's easy from info I got several years ago. With that in mind and the fact the sign got green-lighted, it'd be nice to see that sign get wrapped up. I am pretty surprised this cherry didn't get picked already. It's a photo op for you guys in to that. It's waiting.

I pretty much agree with Steve(s). I think efforts toward being pro-active with authorities as opposed to letting authorities become reactive is a good idea. I have always felt this way and acted on it with Ft.DeSoto when I felt it was necessary. It was anything but a popular move at the time, but it worked out fine.
I am going to focus my efforts down this path and leave any attempts at self-policing vets to others.

[Tom Stock]

As far as I know it is illegal to be riding in the swim zones, period. Just because it's not currently being enforced does not mean it's 'ok', regardless of whatever distances we set for ourselves regarding swimmers and shore.

Those buoys are there for a reason.

[toby wilson]

Is there really a LAW against riding in the swim zones Tom? Being serious, not sarcastic here. I just have never heard of any LAWS in conjunction with kiteboarding but do not claim to be a lawyer or really knowledgable in the legality of this stuff. Interesting though for sure.

[Steve-O]

Check this out regarding swim zones.

One day at the Dunedin Causeway, southside of course, some of us were riding just off the sand. We were in the swim zone area. It was cold, no one was in the water. A cop drove up, and politely asked us to ride outside of the swimzones. We asked why no one had approached us before about this, and he wasn't sure, but again he didn't want us in the swimzones. He later came back and pulled up an ordinance on his computer. It was something to the effect of no powered watercraft inside the swimzones....it listed kayaks, windsurfers, jetskis, boats, ect. He explained that a raft was not considered powered, but anything with a powersource was considered a powered watercraft. Fine was $80+dollars. He was cool and asked us to spread the word and use the area just west of where we were.

The irony here was we could use the north side of the causeway no problemo....well that is where the powerlines are. Nuf said.

So I do not know if that ordinance stands for all swimzones, and like most it is up to the law enforcement to do just that enforce. It took years for someone to say something to us. Note here that on days the water is full of swimmers, riding was done outside the swimzones.

[oldschool]

1st off - that pic of the redneck was not too far off - I kid you not!

So yesterday, b4 the wind went sideshore at 2PM, I am taking a hour walk from Point Of Rocks (way south end of Siesta Key) to the Public Beach - just as I start to hit the guard shacks I see the same damn dark blue RRD crashing up and down - this time 100 yards from the water but the kite is crashing wear sun bathers are and within the posts marking the public beach

So of course I go over and here is hillbilly dude - he has his kite leash/bar tied off to the County's post that marks the N end of the public beach and he is walking from chair to chair suggesting, to everyone within a couple hundred feet of him, that they move as he is concerned he may hit them with his kite

Well, since tehe wind is NE that means he is flying and crashing his damn kite onto the public beach in and around the sun bathers

I go up to him - he says ... not you again! I explain this is ALSO not the place to fly - he tells me to get lost - I think ... damn - no knife again ...

So on my way back past the first guard station I stopped, identified myself as a local, law abiding and sane kiter, told the guards that we try our best to self-police but there is a kook up in the corner of the beach and even though I spoke to him he will not pack up

Guards were very cool and said no problem - I thanked them and said I was sorry for any hassle - one of them drove his ATV up to the corner and I watched the kook pack up and leave

BTW - if you are down at Siesta Key Beach you can't miss the guy - straw hillbilly hat and big scruffy mustache and beard - proof positive that stupid people should not breed

I am hoping his vacation in FL will soon be over

OS

[Tom Stock]

Steve-O, thanks for that.

It's true, and it's a fact. The buoys are there to mark a boundary that powered water craft are not permitted to cross. This includes sailboats of any size, power boats, jet skis, and yes, kite boarders.

[Tom Stock]

Good Job OS! That is exactly how it should be done in every case.

Blasting through the swim zones should be handled in exactly the same way.

[Skyway Scott]

Nice OS, I think the best approach is beginning to become evident. Thanks for doing the right thing.

In terms of swim zones, I know that powered watercraft are not allowed in the swim zones. As of now, I am not for certain how we are classified.
Not too long ago I sat through a Captain's course at SeaSchool. I asked several of the law enforcement guys from Coasties to Marine Patrol to Sherriff's Deputies what the deal was with kiters. None of them knew for sure. I think we are just too new as of now to be discussed, at least where they work. As we become more prevalent out there though, and certainly if an issue arises, I have a feeling one of them will ask that very question of their boss. I think it's a real good chance that we will be classified as under (wind) power. I can't see us classified as a float toy.
My greatest concern is that they then treat us like boats/jetskis. Why spend a great deal of time and resources to write and enforce a new law for 100 guys (locally)? Why not just throw us in an existing group and treat us the same within that group?
From what I have seen and what these guys told me, one way to enforce the no swim zone for skis/boats is to not allow them in the zone - ever - as in they can't be on the beach.
The logic being a jetski or boat on the beach will, or has been, in the swim zone. That's why on weekends you see boats anchored just outside the buoys at the Undertow and you don't see jetskis on the beach, except at sites of rental. If they just treat us as a ski (with limited resources and time to invest drafting laws, I think that is a possible outcome) we could really be screwed, and fast. It may not sound "fair" and may not seem "right", but it's a possibility.

That's my concern for the beach, at the moment. It could easily affect a very large area of coastline overnight considering that we have marked swim zones for most of our beaches. Hey.... are we allowed to ride Clearwater beaches as of now? Why not?
Why is it so terribly difficult for some to extrapolate and see that this is possible along St. Pete Beach?
Knowing that making a small effort and staying outside the swim zones could terrificly lower our chances of having it happen here, but not having agreement on it, is starting to really eat at me, especially light of recent bans on the East coast.

[Whitey]

Check this out regarding swim zones.

One day at the Dunedin Causeway, southside of course, some of us were riding just off the sand. We were in the swim zone area. It was cold, no one was in the water. A cop drove up, and politely asked us to ride outside of the swimzones. We asked why no one had approached us before about this, and he wasn't sure, but again he didn't want us in the swimzones. He later came back and pulled up an ordinance on his computer. It was something to the effect of no powered watercraft inside the swimzones....it listed kayaks, windsurfers, jetskis, boats, ect. He explained that a raft was not considered powered, but anything with a powersource was considered a powered watercraft. Fine was $80+dollars. He was cool and asked us to spread the word and use the area just west of where we were.

The irony here was we could use the north side of the causeway no problemo....well that is where the powerlines are. Nuf said.

So I do not know if that ordinance stands for all swimzones, and like most it is up to the law enforcement to do just that enforce. It took years for someone to say something to us. Note here that on days the water is full of swimmers, riding was done outside the swimzones.

Just to be clear there are three types of markers out there. No wake, No combustion motorized vessels and Swim Zones.

The swim zone ordinance that the officer allowed me to read clearly states that no VESSELS are permitted between the beach and the swim zone markers. Then it goes on to define a vessel, and names anything and everything you can dream of that floats. Including surfboards, rafts, wakeboards, canoes, etc. Then at the end of the list it provides a very well written set of guide lines that allows them to include and deam anything that floats to be a water vessel (even a kids raft if they wanted to).

There is no room for personal interpretation here. It is a law, it has a designated fine attached to it.

STAY OUTSIDE OF MARKED SWIM ZONES where every you find them. And stay away from people outside of our sport even if they are not in a swim zone. For the good of the sport.

Go one step further. Make it obvious to onlookers that you are avoiding the markers. A life guard sitting in a chair watching us do our thing sees you tack away from a swim zone marker shows him you respect their turf, their job, and them as people. This quickly pulls us out of the outlaw rebel classification in thier mind, and they quit waiting for you to break a rule and just enjoy the beauty of the sport.

Most of us are guilty of violating these things in the past, that is history. If we all try to change for the better from this point forward and help remind each other when someone forgets we will all be better off from the change, and our sport will be better off.


Enjoy the power of the wind.

[amber]

I'm sure that Al would be the best one to put something together regarding rules of the road on the water. I completed the captain's class/exam in order to teach on an oceanographic research vessel when i was working in the keys. We, as kiters would be considered powered under sail, so if we were face to face with a boat under power (even a sailboat with a motor running) we would have right of way. as for swim area guidelines, hopefully Al can help us get that situated. He is extremely respected in his field and has a lot of knowledge to share. Lets check in with him before we go any further with designating our own "rules". HOWEVER, i think that Tom's idea of 100 ft from shore unless landing or launching seems pretty reasonable in the interim.

However, i remember last year after the college tournament, there were spectators at the beach specifically there to watch the guys ride and those same spectators were aware of the possible implications of being this close to a rider. If someone chooses to sit in the water with a camera and allow guys to jump a foot over her head with a hard board and big kite, it really is her decision and there's only so much the riders can do. ;) as for regular tour-ons (that's what we call the moron tourists in the keys), we must assume they are clueless and not get too close. just my two cents of course.

[Danimal8199]

my .02, I understand what Steve S. is trying to do. I don't think that Steve thinks his 501c3 is the solution to everything.

I think that the kite-4-life org serves alot of other purposes and that we can achieve safety in other ways as well, however, this formalizes a kiting organization that has the potential to do alot of good and provides something more official.

Do we have a kiting steering committee? do we need one? No to the first, at least in a formal way, and maybe to the second.

I would say just use common sense, but sometime people lack that...

For now for everyone on here that wants to talk about being safe, including myself, should at least lead by example.

I was approached by Whitey or Steve-O last time i was at the dunedin causeway and they politely informed me of the launching rules for the west side. Its that easy, (not to mention i ride with these guys on a regular basis.)

Yeah you deal with a holes like OS did down south, but we are not kiteboarding robots so we should use the best judgement we can for now.

I hear alot of good ideas on here and there is alot of good self-regulation going on, so keep up the good work ladies and gents!

[kite-4-life]

Right on Danimal!
I certainly dont think I have all the answers, they are just one route to take...I have done plenty of homework on this, and in my opinion, its the most sensible solution offered to address most of our problems. I would encourage anyone to put in their research and come up with better solutions, the fact is that most people don't want to do the difficult task of building something, especially for free. I happen to enjoy building things...;)

[Whitey]

We do not need anyone to interpet the simple task of DO NOT GO BETWEEN THE BEACH AND THE SWIM ZONE MARKERS!

The rules of right away are printed for right of way for different types of powered vessels approaching each other. I know what they are. The reality of the matter is that we as kiteboarders are by far the most manoverable of all vessels on the water and also stand the most to loose in the case of contact, which is when the rules are looked at. So don't even think about your rights just avoid being in the vacenity of any person, solid object, or other vessel. Doesn't do any good to say you were right from the dirt nap.

We are the only ones on the water that have the ability to move at 20 kts with full 360 degree visibility not blocked by our sails or rigging. We can turn on a dime with far greater manoverability than anything else on the water, and even if your a beginner you know that if you mess up you are only going one way --downwind--. Be aware of what is with in 500 yards of you at all times.

Make it a point to have a clear safe zone 400 yards down wind of you at all times anticipate and avoid any thing that can hurt you or sue you. If you ride by this simple rule no one will ever call you out for anything.

It's time to stop the talk, and as a group start from this point forward leading by example.

If all of us started today to make an effort from this point forward to create a buffer of 200 yards off of east beach that is only used to enter and exit the riding zone, making the riding zone everything that is 200 yards off the beach, stop lofting on the beach for fun or show, we would have nothing to talk about except what a great day it was and what new moves we did or saw on the water.

Trust me if we all did this as a group all at once, the few that choose not to or do not know better, will stand out big time and it will be very easy to deal with them. We don't need more rules, laws, line cutting, or to call police on each other, the beginners will adopt what they see being done by the people they aspire to ride like. The more accomplished you are as a rider the more you are being watched by others, and the more responsible you should act, it's just that simple.

If they see the best riders staying away from the beach unless going out or returning, turning off to allow someone to leave the beach, moving their kite up to the high postion when they are up wind of an approaching rider that is downwind of them, these things will be copied.

Just an OG's opnion. Enjoy the power of the wind.

[amber]

whitey... no need to CAPITALIZE
"We do not need anyone to interpet the simple task of DO NOT GO BETWEEN THE BEACH AND THE SWIM ZONE MARKERS!" Its rude.

I was simply suggesting that alan give us some information because it appeared that some people were interested in learning the "rules of the road" for the water, and he is an expert. This thread is getting less and less productive. Yes, it is easier if the more respected riders in the area such as our instructors set a good example, which i believe they do. And for the record... telling people they can't ride within 200 yards off the shore at east beach isn't the biggest problem we've got right now nor the solution IMO. Here's my new two cents... shut up and ride. ;)

Seriously... everyone commenting on this thread has good intentions for the sport or they wouldn't be wasting their time thinking about it. its the people that never read or listen to suggestions, posts, complaints, etc. that our "respected area riders" need to worry about in regards to protecting our access. People like bryan and steve-o are stepping up and dealing with the problem when it happens. People like Matt are ASKING to be approached if someone thinks there is an issue that needs to be addressed and he's more than willing to do that. These aren't the guys we should be complaining about. Its the ones that aren't willing to listen that we should be concerned about.

Somebody just needs to make a most wanted poster with the dude with the straw hat and his followers and go from there. nuff said. :)

[Tom Stock]

Fully understood there is always a possibility for unseen circumstances like tough to see swimmers, surfers, and bathers. I do my best to mediate between reckless riders and the safe techniques, i was riding about half way in between swim zone and shore yesterday slowly and without doing freestyle. I don't believe riders should ride near shore and i know there are better places for waves. I'll take the weight of it on my shoulders and make it a mission of mine to ensure our access is preserved and our (meaning greater tampa area) reckless/ potentially dangerous riders are called out. Simply put i will do it to their face and continue trying to help our community as i have been since I became a part of it 3 years ago.

Riding in the swim zone is the #1 thing that is going to get us in trouble at the beaches. Maybe not today, but the day that a kite goes down and tangles with a young swimmer.

I must have missed this post earlier but sounds like Matt is agreeing again to keep his crew outside the swim zone from here on out? Is that right? If so, good call Matt. Everyone else should follow by example.

[zenlikeme]

Thought you guys might be interested... there's a podcast tonight at 9 discussing these very issues, including RickI and Neil Hutchinson

A link to the post on KF about the issues and podcast:

http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2345910

and a link directly to the podcast at 9PM tonight 2/21/08:

http://fubar.com/new_lounge.php?lid=50075

[Skyway Scott]

I am going to listen to that. I have never listened to a podcast.

It sounds like we are all saying the same thing, maybe. I do think ultimately we will have to agree upon a distance from shore.

I also think that winter time riding and spring/summer riding along the beaches are two different animals. In the winter time I don't see an issue with a bunch of us doing a DW from X to Y, the entire time in the swim zone. Why? Well, who is out in 55 degree water on a winter day in waves? Only us, surfers and windsurfers for the most part. Also, hardly anyone is on the beach. In areas where there are surfers we have kept a safe distance from what I have seen.
If an "official rule" is truly enforced, winter time DW's won't be the same :( (we actually have waves then)

It's starting to be the time of year that more people are in the water (a lot more) b/c it is warming up and the beach is just flat out jammed. We will be getting tons of seabreezes here soon, as well as spring breakers. It's personally my favorite time to ride. If we can come to an agreement about distance from shore and honor it, we will be better off.

It's been said, but it'd be best if we regulate ourselves to a particular rule, rather than have a stiffer one jammed down our throats or a ban, I think.

After reading everyone's inputs, it's sounds like the swim zone markers might be what we agree to. Why? (up until recently, I usually rode more like 100 feet, btw) Because they apply to powered craft for one. Also, if you are going to stay a certain distance away from shore anyway (like 2 kite lengths), you may as well add 100 more feet. And possibly most importantly and I thought a good point by Whitey, it's a visual reference that shows the public you respect a boundary. For me, that's a biggie.
That's mainly what we are trying to do with most of our self-regulation is show the public we want to be respectful users and be a part of the entire community, right?

I am sure we can come to an agreement. We all want the same thing. The past really is the past. It's gone... pooof. So pointing at yesterday's actions really is pointless. Upholding our word from hear on out will let us point toward tomorrow. It's important we hold ourselves accountable (obvious cliche', I know).

Anyway, one step at a time. At least the conversation is happening, even if not always lovey, dovey.

[Whitey]

i am very sorry if i offended anyone, it was not my intent. i did not know that using caps was rude. although i have seen a lot of stuff posted in lower case that is rude. i will step back and go back to just watching. you all have fun, see you at 3r. whitey out.

[amber]

SCOTT: I think you summed it up and I couldn't agree more with your most recent post. especially about the difference between the beach on a 50 degree day with 25knots wind vs. an 80 degree day during spring break. That was my point about east beach. Even on sunday which was a BEAUTIFUL day, i'm pretty sure i was the only one in the water other than the kiters. There was no risk to beachgoers even if people were riding close to shore. Each launch is different which makes it difficult to have a "general" rule of a certain number of yards, etc. In the fall when we were discussing rules for the signs, I think we agreed that not all the same rules should apply to the skyway vs. east beach vs. St. Pete Beach, etc.

WHITEY: I agree that there has been quite a bit of "rude" postings in lower case letters. However, it has been stressed to me in business that CAPITALIZING represents yelling in written communication. I felt like you jumped down my throat about suggesting that Al shed some light on rules of the road. Not necessarily having to do with boundaries. I know there are a lot of new people out there that don't know who has right of way when approaching, etc. I didn't mean to offend you and i was just letting you know that i was taken aback when i read the first line of your post. Ease down tiger. ;) LOL! Its all good.

EVERYONE: there are a lot of people that are VERY passionate about these issues. Tempers get fired up, people start whipping out the CAPITALIZATION (joke!) and fingers are pointed, people get defensive and we lose productivity. I don't agree that it is a popularity contest. I backed Bryan and Steve-o and Matt in my last post because i truly believe that all three of them have good intentions and truly care about what's going on in the world of kiting. Not every single one of us is going to lead by example every minute of every day. We need to remind people when they overlook things like swim buoys that its a hot issue right now and to steer clear, not accuse them of gross misconduct and absolute carelessness. At the end of the day, we all want the same thing... to be able to go out and enjoy a day of kiting at our local launches, right???

[Tom Stock]

Whitey the caps isn't offensive.. it's to emphasize something in a field of lower case rambling. An entire post in caps might be obnoxious, but I didn't see anything rude about your post ... heck, Amber uses caps all over the place in her post above with the labels SCOTT, WHITEY, EVERYONE, etc... I don't find her post rude either btw.

So no big deal... :D

[toby wilson]

...And on the next episode of Days of Our Kites...

Skyway Scott videotapes the goings on at the mangrove path at the backside for evidence to make our launches safer with less used condoms and syringes laying around to contaminate the area. Those 60 year old pattycakers don't stand a chance!!!

Stevil Kenevil gives free lessons with his Confederate Flag Freak Dog to his redneck bretheren on Siesta Key. They chew tobacco and argue over whose pickup has more horsepower.

Old School slashes their tires while they aren't looking. Then he outruns them in his Yugo after sneaking up on them and buzzing lines in their mullets with a pair of clippers.

WHITEY IS FOUND AT 3 ROOKER CAPITALIZING ON A WINDY DAY.

Amber then loops the kite and pulls off a handlepass to blind...crashes her 12M Pink Waroo into Adam again, and gets offended that he was in her way.

Toby does flaileys into the sunset on Saturday...

;) I think we've all had enough for one thread!!!

Looks like another great windy day for EB on Saturday!!! See you all there!!!

[Skyway Scott]

I am assuming you are trying to get a rise out of some people, Toby.
I don't know what good that does, but whatever.

I believe these efforts will succeed in one form or another despite hecklers and nay-sayers. It's just the way it is. This sport is truly going mainstream now.
I am willing to bet that most of what is going to happen in the next 6 months to a year is going to be done by a group of people around the State and the country cooperating together and working with authorities to iron out some fair guidelines. I doubt much will be discussed online after too much longer, mainly because I think some of you are right - to a large extent being on here is a total waste of time. I happen to think a lot of people learned a lot just recently, though.
Possibly most importantly, that self-regulation is most likely not possible, not amongst "bros", because getting cooperation from all involved is far too difficult.

[toby wilson]

Well, looks like it pushed yours but that wasn't the intent. It was a fun light-hearted post. Chill the hell out and learn how to take a joke and laugh at it, I poked fun at myself and my friends.

The forum is not a freaking regulatory board, it should be a place where we go to have fun as well as discuss things while the wind isn't blowing. How many different ways can you say the same thing? We know how you and everyone else feels. Enough is enough and continuing with this thread is pointless. Everyone has said what they felt they needed to say. Now its time to move on...

[Steve-O]

Here is something to chew on. Just got off the phone with Brian May. Did you know he works at Howard Park with the park system. Anyways, he spoke with the supervisor of the park and the only reason there is no kiting aloud at Howard was due to people kiting in the swim zones. No accident, noswimmers that got hurt, no notta. Just an out of town tourists riding in the swimzone on a crowded sunny day and ruining it for all.

So, Brian is putting together a petition that we would like everyone to sign at the race to get Howard Park open again to kiting. We got nothing to lose.

So we are all concerned about beach access in the future, so use Howard as an example that access can be easily taken away and very difficult to get back.

We all need your help on this one whether you ride there or not.

There are some rumors about Howard, and there is the story straight from the supervisors mouth.

[Tom Stock]

Here is something to chew on. Just got off the phone with Brian May. Did you know he works at Howard Park with the park system. Anyways, he spoke with the supervisor of the park and the only reason there is no kiting aloud at Howard was due to people kiting in the swim zones. No accident, noswimmers that got hurt, no notta. Just an out of town tourists riding in the swimzone on a crowded sunny day and ruining it for all.

So, Brian is putting together a petition that we would like everyone to sign at the race to get Howard Park open again to kiting. We got nothing to lose.

So we are all concerned about beach access in the future, so use Howard as an example that access can be easily taken away and very difficult to get back.

We all need your help on this one whether you ride there or not.

There are some rumors about Howard, and there is the story straight from the supervisors mouth.

same story I heard. good news, hope it works out.

[Tom Stock]

Tags are primarily up to the instructors so we can't answer that question. Signs? We already said yes and agreed on the sign it just never got done.

I guess we could dig up the thread and see who dropped the ball.

You discussed self rescue courses which is a good idea to keep lines contained during the swim in. Wasn't there a big self rescue class at E.B. awhile back? I can't remember but I know they were scheduled two or three times with a bunch of people signed up.

The big issue now is bans and that appears to be happening due to disregarding swim areas so I'd like to hear some ideas on how kite-4-life could address this issue.

[Woodson]

I took this from the discussion on Kiteforum regarding rash guards that indicate community member etc...


“It looks like the Brits have had this sorted out for a long time:

http://www.britishkitesurfingassociatio ... ory/16/35/

I think a good first step could be the formation of local clubs where the riders are easily identified i.e. by a rash guard. This give some small amount of incentive for club members to behave in the public eye. And when an incident happens hopefully it involves a non-member. The existance of a club lays groundwork to allow some responsible kiters to keep access when disrespectful kiters ruin the sports reputation. Hopefully then the worst case scenerio is enforced club membership in order to maintain access as in Ainsdale:

http://www.aoskc.com/page.php?2

Behavior like this needs to have consequences for the kiter for example exclusion from the club:



Jake”


_

Bryan W.

[amber]

The rash guards sound cool, but good luck trying to get everyone to wear the same thing. ha ha.

the tags we agreed on are cheap (less than two bucks a piece when ordered in quantities of 100), waterproof, durable, and have a place to put emergency contact information, which IMO is a very important benefit.

They would be attached to your harness that way when switching kites, boards, etc. you wouldn't have to remember to change anything. people would forget bracelets, etc. We agreed on three levels and three colors. I've got the catalog at my desk. HOWEVER... i am a broke joke and cannot do this alone. I know that Steve isn't Daddy Warbucks either, so that is why having all the instructors pitch in was the most realistic plan. Members of the community can also volunteer to donate. Like i said...they're not expensive, but someone has to be willing to throw in some dough.

maybe we could set up a bucket at the race post party or something for donations and see how that works out. I'm sure most people would be willing to throw in a couple bucks and with more than 100 people registered, it would cover the entire cost.

gotta go fight fraud. happy friday. what do you guys think?

[rigger]

I think all this is ridiculous. Why would you want to strangle us with all this talk of getting the authorities involved? Preventive or whatever, and having them regulate us? Friggin crazy…Stupid and ill thought. If you want to be so regulated and excessively safe go to the water park in Orlando and ride around in circles for hours.

You cannot compare our area with Miami or FT Lauderdale. Ricks and Neils problems are far worse than ours will ever be. We do not have the attention or population on our beaches. I ride outside and inside the markers and will continue to do so, because I am aware of my surrounds and will not go near people in the water or on shore. I fear it. This should be common sense. And I KNOW most share this common sense. Honestly, how many bystander casualties have you heard of in this area, ever? Non-to my knowledge, and that shows that most of us are conscious of safety, and that we are doing something right. Most of our worries lie with new kiters, the occasional kook, and launching and landing our kites. None of which riding out side the markers will help. Its really a handful that are on some self righteous mission to regulate the entire community because a noob made a noob mistake and got dragged or lofted or just banged up or just did something plan stupid. There is nothing we can do about a wannabe who bought a kite off eBay.

All we can do is put the word out that lessons are as important as a kite, and that is when Randy, Steve O, Eckerd’s and the rest of the local instructors who have an obligation to our community for their part in instruction of safety and related matter. Sorry but there is a risk you take in this game when starting out, and thru ones kiting life, and regulation aren’t going to help that. Shit is going to happen regardless of what kind of regulation you are trying to shove down our throats. And expect for a few choice spots, we are not endanger of losing anything atm. Which also says something. We could us people like Scott, Tom and Steve 0 Steve and the few others that are active in promoting kiting when our access is threaten, and to be our spokesmen when or if some kook or kitemare does threaten our access. But all this getting the authorities involves is not the answer and you are pissing on the freedom this sport offers. Do use all a favor and back off the “let the authorities regulate us crap.” Help out, advise new kiters.

[<jason]

Here's the thing...

I personally wouldnt mind wearing some sort of rashguard or little tag hanging off my harness....

But rigger is right, once we go down that road....of having someone else regulate us... thats what we will get Regulations....
And their will be no comming back from that...

I understand this is not a soultion, just my .02

[amber]

let me clear something up. The idea of the tags was to prevent "the authorities" regulate us by being proactive and taking care of things ourselves. It is to avoid "them" having to become involved. Its an easy way to promote safety, and give others an idea of who they're on the water and beach with.

I personally get all panicky when someone rides really close to me. Even though people know who i am, they might all not realize that i should have a yellow tag because i'm still learning. That kook with the ebay kite and no lessons would have no tag which would be an alert to area riders.

Rigger... not sure who you are, and that would probably help, but blatantly stating that you don't care and you don't think anything bad will happen is just plain careless. if you care about this sport and the future of it in our area, be a big boy and stay outside swim markers unless its 40 degrees out and there is no one out there.

I think that your mentality in dealing with the authorities via PR people AFTER something bad happens is absolutely ridiculous. sorry... it is. You act as if you're invincible. I don't know who you are so i don't know how you ride, but let me tell you that you can be a kiter as good as Billy or Matt or Mike, be riding thru a swim zone with kids in it, be in total control and have a line snap, a chicken loop accidentally release, etc. Shit... Tomstock had a freaking BIRD hit his bridle and snap it.

Its a risky sport. We try to do what we can to lower the risk level. If this includes putting a luggage tag on your harness and you're not okay with at least discussing that, maybe you need to find other places to ride so your arrogance and ignorance doesn't cause me to loose a great place to ride.

[Tom Stock]

I see your point but we are already regulated by the authorities. We are just getting away with it because our numbers are still low and there hasn't been a serious accident yet.... but there have been PLENTY of accidents on the beach with bystanders. I've seen my share.

When the crowds increase and we DO have that one bad accident expect your beach launch days to be history, just like Howard Park. All it takes is ONE accident. Look how much attention the power line lofting got and poor Chris didn't even hurt a bystander. With all of the "Dangerous sport?" headlines imagine if he HAD hurt someone else?

Sorry I'm not being a spokesperson for anyone "after the fact". Tough luck on that one. Thats like telling someone not to do something and then cleaning up for them after they blatantly do it anyway.

I'd rather just quit kiteboarding when that happens than clean up after a bunch of egotistical careless self centered kiteboarders (obviously this doesn't include everyone).


Honestly I can't believe nobody can even agree to stay outside a swim area. That is about as rediculous,self centered, and irresponsible as it gets. It's just one thing and it's something we are already supposed to be doing.

Forget the newbs who don't know any better. The real kook is the one who DOES know better and does it anyway...

Also, I am not talking about a few tacks inside the buoys. I am talking about blatantly jumping and riding 10 feet from shore in and around swimmers. Everyone tacks inside the swim area one in awhile just like we all speed once in awhile. There is a difference between pushing it and outright disregard.

[Skyway Scott]

I got to ride today. It was definitely a nice day. It's amazing how clean the water is getting year to year. Visibility today reminded me of the keys or something. 20 years ago it was basically pea soup out there.

It's cool to see all the viewpoints on here. It's interesting for sure.
After today I decided that I am going to focus on myself and how I ride. I literally don't care what others do anymore. Attempting to change views is a waste of time, so I won't do it. I think Tammy saw how I will interact with/as a part of the community today. A new guy showed up and asked about me about the rules at PaG. I said "just mimic everyone else and you are good to go". Majority rules, basically.

So, I am just going to focus on me. To that end, I want it understood that I have zero intent of making a video (pointless), talking to any authorities (pointless) or doing anything. I just don't want to be "the guy" that screwed us over, so I am going to ride outside the swim zone, regardless of what others do.

The main reason I want to make it clear that I am not focusing on the rest of you is that when/if we lose access, I don't want one person thinking even for a second that I was somehow involved. It's not going to take someone talking, it's only going to take further bad behavior. So, if a ban happens, trust me, I didn't talk to anyone up to this point and won't. Anyone concerned about myself approaching authorities has my word on it that I won't. Only a fool would talk to the beach police at this point and risk being blamed if something bad happens soon.

[rigger]

Amber first thing is im not egotist. Im being a realist. And my point is that we are going to shoot our selfs in the foot. My thoughts were a collection of what i read on this thread. I don’t think I addressed anything you mention in your posts. I respect how active you are in the kiting community. And i think you to be sweet, well until you bashed me ;) Oh and Ive been discussing this shit for years. If we all rode in the same spot, then we could possible enforce some kind of the stuff mentioned. But the fact of the matter is that we dont. I would gladly were a luggage tag if it made you feel safer. Oh and this is Jeff Btw

Tom, my point is that most us practice as safe riders.. All this regulation stuff usually comes up after one incident occurs usually with a new kiter, which is also far and few between. I would gladly wear a luggage tag if it made you feel safer too. That’s not my point. My point is that I enjoy riding in the gulf most of all and the meager waves that we get. And when i read about people wanting to video tape people on the beach and have the authorities make our regulation all because someone is riding inside the markers, it irks me. I don’t pull kite loops 10ft from shore, im talking about tacking in and out and playing in the waves, I don’t think its unsafe, If you call that selfcenter than oh well buddy,because we ALL do it. That is my point.
If you really see something unsafe, (beating died horse) Then say something. If they dont listen call the authorites like OS did. Keep all the super regulation stuff at EB were the masses gather and the real possibly of a serious accident occurring. Most times even on a windy day, i can count the amount of kites in the air from coast to coast on one hand. Us riding inside the marks has never been an issue, please dont make it one. I guess thats all im really saying.

[Tom Stock]

Rigger, yeah thats what I am talking about. I'm not talking about just riding back and forth in areas with few swimmers.

Anyway, I'm just going to let it go and hope for the best.. ... be safe.

[rigger]

I hope a few different views and disagreements really don’t make you feel that way Scott. You are definitely Old school and your knowledge about kiting is a valuable resource for all of us. I mean that.

I have to admit that the video tape thing did twist me the wrong way. Mainly because the Gulf is my riding spot of choice, and I do tack in and out thru the markers, with the mentality those swimmers have the right of way. Again I don’t feel that as being unsafe. That’s just my take on it.

[amber]

ok rigger... your last post seems MUCH more reasonable. It seemed in the previous one that you were basically telling us to F-off. What's important to stress is that its not something that Scott or Steve or anyone can fix once its already happened. Wanna know how quick we could lose access for a SMALL incident? Just ask the guys up in Chicago or Miami. They had to work their asses off to get their access back, and now they are limited to certified riders, mandatory helmets, etc. I'd prefer to do what I can to prevent that here. If that means keeping a reasonable distance from swimmers, it baffles me how that could be something people are trying to argue against.

You definitely got me fired up earlier. A lot of research and discussions led us to the tag thing last summer and for someone to take something as low-key as that and say that I (we) are trying to strangle them with it... well yeah. You pissed me off. ;) No hard feelings ever on here... until someone is an idiot, and not by accident and it screws over the rest of us. then there might be some hard feelings.

see you at the beach...

[kite-4-life]

*To clarify one thing- My goal is to educate, not regulate.

[Tom Stock]

I admit I get fired up and get on here and start voicing my opinion maybe louder than I should. I sort of get tunnel vision. For that I appologize. Forums have always been an issue for me... maybe I am a little obsessive.

I'm just going to ride, take my meds, and let it work itself out. I guess it will eventually.

No point in pissing evenryone off and making enemies with a decent bunch of guys over differing opinions especially when I don't even ride the beaches much anymore. Plus I have 5 boards in progress so I don't even know why I'm wasting my time on forums anyway.

So with that said, I'm outta this thread and I wish I'd just never even read it.

See you in the flat water...

[rigger]

Man, I apologize if I offended anyone. I had some concerns that I expressed in the wrong way. The thread name says it all.