Interesting thread about Eclipse

[toby wilson]

http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2343614

[Skyway Scott]

That thread is getting awfully long.

Here is another one that might prove interesting, as well.
http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2344229

[toby wilson]

Yes it is...interesting, isn't it? Lovers and haters duking it out...on BOTH threads!!! LOL!!! ;)

You all know MY opinion on the Thrusters...

[Danimal8199]

Yeah Toby, you like the Thruster like you like sausages, in other words, ALOT!

But thats ok. I have a demitri Pro 135 and when you told me about it you were on the money as well. I'm glad I have it.

I still don't like sausage though!

[JoshTaylor]

i'd take a switchblade 3 over one any day :D
lol

[amber]

toby...clean out your inbox so i can PM you.

[toby wilson]

Quit brand pimping Josh!!! :D

[Tom Stock]

I didn't see anybody "hating" anything, but certainly plenty of heated discussion with varying opinions. The last part about the quick release is particularly interesting because if Dimitri would just agree to incorporate the ideas into the next version of the quick release (whether it ever actually happens or not) he would win over a bunch more people RIGHT THERE IN THE THREAD.

That is what i find most interesting... customers asking repeatedly for something and the company telling them they can never have it. Problem is the customers have the money.

Just a few lines of text from Dimitri could change the entire thread...

[Danimal8199]

The joys of brand loyalty!

[Skyway Scott]

I agree Tom.

Everyone has their own opinion, but... I don't think the "put your finger in the loop" (like Best has) QRs are worth crap.
I also don't think the "pull the little knob" QRs like SS has are worth crap, either.
Having to get your finger in, or a couple fingers around, little loops and little knobs in an emergency, while getting dragged like a rag doll just isn't going to happen.
Not quickly, anyway. Wearing gloves in the winter? (well, you are screwed then ... lol ) I mean, c'mon... seriously.

Most QRs should be called "slow ... if you're lucky enough to activate them" releases.

I am starting to favor (in a huge way ) the push (or pull) away from all sides type of release. Any hand will do, it's always in the same place, just grab it and push/pull.
I think the best one I have seen was the North Iron-heart. Cornel has it on his Vegas kite. Piece of cake to re-load, as well.
I can see why Royal went with that one, even though it's probably the most expensive to make. I have read of problems with these (releasing accidentally).

I see a lot of talk on KF about QRs being only for beginners.
I simply have to laugh at that. I don't think it matters how good you are if it goes from 15 to 40 on you. BTW, it doesn't matter how strong you are, either.

Anyway, I wish someone would figure this QR thing out and get it "right".
I am convinced at least a few people less would die every year if they were easier to access and worked properly.

I haven't had to QR (besides during a launch) in 3 years. (I have QR'd about 10 self launches, but my finger is in the loop as the kite is going up)
Still, the day I need to release while riding, I hope I am not screwing around for 8 seconds. :confused:


(Just thought I would throw something out to discuss :) ) Not really knocking the Eclipse QR. To be honest, that vid didn't show me how it worked too well.
I assume you put your finger in a certain spot and push down, or do you put it in the loop and pull? :(

[inferno]

naish has been using the push release for years, ive only used it once and it worked fine...... plus theirs locks the chicken loop in place for easy hooking in

[BigR]

Cabrinha has had a never fail push QR ( even if your hands have 7mm gloves on ) for at least 3 years now , since the Xbow I ( we are now at Xbow III ).

Cabby's QR releases instantly and the more the kite pulls , the push required to release stays the same. Super simple to put back together too

[Tom Stock]

I think the problem with some of the current push away systems is that the CL separates from the bar.. so you loose the CL and you are out of luck for the rest of the day.

There are a few though that only release one side of the CL hoop, which I think is the way to go :D

As far as I could tell though almost all of the push away systems are easy to reset in the water... but thats not a real big deal if the things doesn't constantly get released accidentally.

[BigR]

I think the problem with some of the current push away systems is that the CL separates from the bar.. so you loose the CL

in the cabby QR system you keep the CL, it stays attached to your harness

[Skyway Scott]

Even if the donkey D. isn't in?

[Tom Stock]

I really don't get why so many companies make these things so complicated.

http://www.floridakiteboarder.com/pictures/qr.jpg

[BigR]

Even if the donkey D. isn't in?

That is one of the QR mechanisms ( if you don't use the leash but the DD instead )

OR

You can also use the leash instead of the DD / QR combo, that leash has the identical QR as well ( basically two QR's )

[inferno]

I really don't get why so many companies make these things so complicated.

http://www.floridakiteboarder.com/pictures/qr.jpg

thats exactly how the naish one is set up......

[bryanleighty]

tho i've never had to pull it while being dragged across land or similar, I have had to pull the Best 2007 bar release with an out of control looping kite and it was easy to grab and pull..it released smooth as silk..

there will always be the story of the rider that is in a situation where he/she cannot get to their QR.. but the approach needs to be simple.

I am scared that with the push-out system i would knock up against it to easily.. i just have never tried it.

[Skyway Scott]

I am a little surprised a company that makes bars and lines (only) hasn't arisen out of all the companies trying to make a buck off of kiting.

Just make 4 or 5 different high quality bars (2 bars mainly) then with different choices on cleat or pull/pull, QR mechanism, etc. and put good line on them.
Most kites are not bar specific anyway (Ozone is, but not many others).
Must be that not much money can be made off of bars (?), people want the "matching bar" or that it's hard to buy kite only (new). Beats me.
Still surprised by the lack of bar options.

Anyway... just spewing stuff out today, bored I guess.

[Tom Stock]

I've had:

1 QR completely fail to release, dragged across East Beach at high speed between trees, signs, and moving cars... slid to a stop at the mangroves on the other side when I finally managed to get unhooked.

3 times I've fumbled for it in a kitemare and missed it... luckily only scraped up and shredded booties. Cold hands, no time to look down, couldn't find the little red loop.

Since then I've put a stopper ball on the pin so I can find it without looking.. and I launch with my hand on it if launching hooked in.

Not perfect but better. Pull loops require too much effort to locate unless they are huge, and then you risk hooking into the loop itself by accident.

[Skyway Scott]

Funny. My Ozone loop is stitched in a manner to always "hold it open" in a stiff, full circle shape. The Best one easily folds over on itself, and is no longer a loop, more like a squashed loop. How does your finger go in there? lol

Anyway, the Ozone one is so big and open and that I have accidentally hooked it (numerous times) while trying to rehook back in after a trick. That always sucks, because it just QRs the C-loop and then sinks it to the bottom. :( :confused: LOL.

So then, you are sitting there with no C-loop, fully powered and have to ride in. Bummer... LOL.....
It's sort of hard to believe in a way, after all this time.
The kites are getting awesome, the boards awesome and the Cloop and QR's on many kites are still the same.

[Tom Stock]

Funny I was waiting for someone to say accidentally hooking into the QR pull loop is impossible (anything is possible if it's completely inconvenient) ... but then you just said you've done it a few times and killed the discussion before it started :)

LOL

[toby wilson]

I didn't see anybody "hating" anything, but certainly plenty of heated discussion with varying opinions. The last part about the quick release is particularly interesting because if Dimitri would just agree to incorporate the ideas into the next version of the quick release (whether it ever actually happens or not) he would win over a bunch more people RIGHT THERE IN THE THREAD.

That is what i find most interesting... customers asking repeatedly for something and the company telling them they can never have it. Problem is the customers have the money.

Just a few lines of text from Dimitri could change the entire thread...

THERE WILL BE AN ECLIPSE DEMO DAY AT EITHER EAST BEACH OR NORTH BEACH ON SUNDAY DEPENDING ON WIND DIRECTION FOR ALL LOCALS TO COME OUT AND TRY THE 2008 THRUSTERS FOR THEMSELVES BEFORE COMMENTING ON THE EFFECTIVENESS OF ANY ASPECT OF THE KITES. THIS WILL BE A GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR ALL THAT ARE SKEPTICAL ON THE ECLIPSE QR TO TRY FOR THEMSELVES TO SEE HOW GREAT THIS SYSTEM REALLY IS. THESE KITES ARE MADE BY THE RIDERS, FOR THE RIDERS WITH 100% RIDER INPUT DURING THE R & D PHASE EACH AND EVERY YEAR. DIMITRI, CHRIS, MOMI AND THE OTHER POWERS THAT BE AT ECLIPSE USE NOTHING BUT RIDER INPUT FROM BEGINNERS THRU PROS TO HELP DEVELOP EACH AND EVERY ASPECT OF THESE KITES. TRY THEM AND YOU'LL SEE WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. ;)

Pull loops require too much effort to locate unless they are huge, and then you risk hooking into the loop itself by accident.

TOM, YOU YOURSELF HAVE ADMITTED THAT THE 1 TIME YOU HAD A FAILED QR ON A PULL LOOP WAS WHEN THE KITE COMPANY IN QUESTION (NOT ECLIPSE) HAD SENT IT TO YOU FROM THE FACTORY RIGGED INCORRECTLY. YOU ALSO SAID THAT YOU HAD TIME TO BOTH LOCATE THE LOOP AND PULL ON IT SEVERAL TIMES IN YOUR WORDS 'WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT' WHILE THE KITE WAS LOOPING BUT IT DID NOT RELEASE BECAUSE IT WAS RIGGED IMPROPERLY (BY THE MANUFACTURER). HOW IS THAT RELEVANT TO THE 2008 ECLIPSE QR? BECAUSE IT WAS A PULL LOOP? IT WOULD HAVE WORKED FINE HAD IT BEEN RIGGED PROPERLY, CORRECT? WHAT IT TELLS ME IS THAT A PULL LOOP IS AS EASILY LOCATED AS ANYTHING ELSE SEEING AS HOW FAST YOU WERE MOVING DURING THAT KITEMARE, I KNOW BECAUSE I WAS THERE THAT DAY AND WATCHED THE WHOLE THING HAPPEN IN NO MORE THAN 5 SECONDS. IT WAS GOOD TO SEE YOU WALK AWAY FROM THAT ONE... I PERSONALLY WOULD RATHER PULL MY QR THAN HAVE TO LOCATE AND THEN PUSH FORWARD ANY DAY OF THE WEEK...HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO BE ABLE TO PUSH WHEN YOU ARE BEING PULLED AT MACH 10??? MUCH EASIER TO YANK ON A QR LOOP IMO...JUST TRY THE KITES ON SUNDAY TOM, YOU WILL SEE THAT IT IS A VERY EFFICIENT SYSTEM. :)

[E-Bone]

Hey, T-Back, your caps lock button is on.

[Unimog Bob]

Man, What is all the yelling about dude? Every thing is cool. we may even get some wind this weekend. No one is hating on your kites. All kites rock bro, Bayflight says so.

[inferno]

All kites rock bro

careful using some elses phrase... thats been bryans for quite a while.. :)

[Skyway Scott]

It's easy to push when you are being pulled.
The QR is at a fixed distance from you (just above your waist, with a seat harness). You just reach down, grab and push out with all your might.
In theory, it shouldn't take all your might, but I would overkill it, just in case.

You should convince Dimitri to test his QR's here.
We could tie people's kite line to my truck and I will gun it.
They will be blindfolded and start out in the water, but only 50 yards away from shore.
Those who reach the QR and release in time will be okay.
Those that can't will be drug through a mud pit we create. It'd make for some pretty fun testing :)

I don't think anyone is picking on Eclipse. I was just wanting to have some open conversation. I know RickI and some others are interested in the idea of improving QRs. I was basically saying how it's amazing how QRs (some anyway) haven't improved all that much in a while. I don't recall Tom going ballistic, either. He just entered the conversation.

Anyway, I am not the best kiter around (by far) but because of my WATER TIME (bite me, Real) I have been dragged around, thrown into land rovers, drug hundreds of yards down beaches, had ACL surgeries, had QR failures, and seen winds go from 15 to 40 more than most. I have also seen too many people take ambulance rides.
I am therefore very aware of the dangers we encounter (even if rare) when we ride, just from seeing them or being involved in them, myself.
They suck. :( Some of them, I am confident, would have been avoided with good QRs.
I would just like to see a better, more easy to reach and trigger QR out there. It won't guarantee our safety and may not be the first thing that many reach for or be the first action that many take to get out of trouble. But, having a QR that is easy to use and actually works seems like a reasonable concept, to me. It is called safety gear, after all.

Open discussion is cool, especially on KF where some of the manufacturers actually listen. This especially includes Dimitri, as he and Chris seem to take many things proposed by riders to heart. These are just opinions, but I feel that trying to find a loop (half the time closed over, near "shut") or a little knob, on one side of a C-loop is hard when you are getting dragged at mach 2 (if you aren't, you probably don't need the QR anyway).

I know we have already had the "you don't need a QR, pull the C-loop out manually" discussion.
But, I wouldn't mind feeling mine (and Donna's and all my friends) QR's are easy to find and release if they to attempt to do so. :)

[Tom Stock]

Sheesh T whats the yelling about.... I was talking about QR's in general, not specifically eclipse.

What I SAID was that I MISSED THE QR 3 times because I could NOT FIND it in time. The loop was either on the wrong side, too small to find, or I couldn't get my finger in it.

That's the problem we are discussing... that pull loops and little knobs on one side are hard to find.

1) You cant feel them with cold numb hands...
2) You cant count on them being in the same place every time
3) If you make them big and easier to find, you can accidentally hook into the loop itself preventing you from releasing the kite altogether.

These are facts and have nothing to do with opinions or specific companies.

Brand Loyalty should not prevent anyone from trying to improve a design especially when it's regarding safety.

We are all human and nothing is perfect without much trial and error.

BTW, all kites are designed and tested by riders!

I'll be out of town so I'll miss out on the Demo.

Dimitri agreed to consider a pull away system for 2009... so there you have it folks.

[toby wilson]

I thought my post was worded to Tom in a pretty positive way. I think it was taken wrong given our past history.;) Sorry my caps lock was on, I didn't do that for effect or anything. I was addressing a couple of Tom's posts so I put his name in there. No disrespect meant to Tom and I am asking him to try the kites in my post. I wanted people to know how the kites are tested. Dimitri and Chris take my input very seriously and if we had other Eclipse riders or people who wanted feedback to get to them, they are easily reached through me or through their email or PM. I have found that the most constructive way to improve anything in life is not by complaining about it on forums. If people don't like the way something is then go to the source and address the issue, that is all I am saying.

Bayflite and Bob are on the mark 100%, All kites rock!!!

So I apologize if my post came off the wrong way...and Dimitri always considers everything kiters have to say, so I'm not surprised that he said that either about the pull away system. It would not be my preference but majority rules...

[Tom Stock]

LOL Toby, well I hope you were drinking a good imported brew!!

[toby wilson]

LOL!!! See you when you get back into town Tom!

[Stevil Kenevil]

LOL!!! See you when you get back into town Tom!

Ain't THAT Sweet!!!!
You guys should get a room at Motel 6 and stop these little charades. we all KNOW whats going on here......

[Unimog Bob]

careful using some elses phrase... thats been bryans for quite a while.. :)

DANNY DON'T TRY TO "REAL" ME! I GAVE BRYAN CREDIT FOR HIS TRADE MARK PHRASE. BESIDES I'VE GOT WAY TOO MUCH WATER TIME AND GOUND TIME TO TO INFRINGE ON A TRADE MARK. ROCK ON GNARLY KITE DUDE!

All this yelling is killing the vibe. I hope the forecast holds and I see y'all out there. I'll be waiting at the gate or on the beach for sun up tomorrow at EB

[bayflite]

bob
save a spot for me dude.
i can't make it till barb-q:30
have grill will travel.

[Unimog Bob]

Bro if you're bringing the grill, I'll get some burgers and dogs. I'll save you some space with my doors open and some folding chairs. look for the Benz funk wagon. Don't be too late its likely to be a mob scene.

[Sean B]

DANNY DON'T TRY TO "REAL" ME!

LOL!! You got Real'd!! I love all the "Real" one-two combos I've been hearing lately!

[Steve-O]

Ran into Alex Fox today.....great rider by the way, anyways he had an interesting take on the new Thrusters. Might want to pick his brain sometime.

A definately value his opinion...the kid can ride.