Count how long it takes...

[popeye]

Count in seconds, how long it takes, from the point at which this guy realizes he's in trouble, until he hits the beach. Onshore winds... would you have time to pull your quick release? Think about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIdmk58KXtI

3 seconds.

[Skyway Scott]

:) 8 seconds.
He rode for 5 totally litt before losing his edge.
He could have dumped it when he realized he was screwed.
Must have been a C-kite, I bet.
I agree, it still happened pretty fast.
Hope he didn't get impailed on a sailboat mast or sumtin, wonder why the censored it?

Here's a classic of why you should have distance as your friend when jumping in onshore winds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8mrjYRr6ao&mode=related&search=

especially unhooked and if you are going to switch sides of your bar with one turn. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ssOtmbMKE&mode=related&search=

[bayflite]

like the best t-shirt says

UNHOOK

if comming unhooked iz scary 2 u...practice.

don't hook yourself 2 a kite with a combination lock.

donky dicks r bad...very bad.

a quick release iz a last option.

unhook, it makes your tricks look better and really iz not that hard 2 do w/practice.

l8r

[popeye]

From the point at which he lost his edge (the huge gust) to impact was 3-4 seconds.

Unhook? Yeah right lol.

[BigR]

I hate to disagree with you bro' ( yeah right! )

But I don't think you can unhook when the bar is pulling with the equivalent force thats many times your weight and increasing in a matter of a few seconds

lets try an experiment: hook up the bar/lines to the fender of a stopped car, hook in and tell the driver to punch it. I bet he hits 60 mph B 4 you can unhook

donky dicks R'nt bad, same as any other shackle system. better cause they don't get stuck mechanically ( thats not my QR tho and shouldnt B your QR )

[Skyway Scott]

Yeah, it was all fast! :)
I am just saying, he didn't get yanked off egde without some warning.
He had been edging pretty hard. Idk, it's easy to sit here and watch this stuff, I guess. I do know kitemares use to happen a lot more frequently when we were on C kites. A local rider recently returned from Ormond (Ryan) who has been riding for several years. I asked him how often he remembered seeing a kitemare (not necessarily ambulance... but getting dragged ashore or hitting a truck, similar) from 4 seasons ago. He said usually every time out, or at least every other time. That's how I remember it too.

Depowering (to any large extent) just wasn't really possible when things went wrong, so we'd get dragged around.

I think BigR might remember me getting dragged pretty good on Rob Hassle's Contra 19 (C kite) at Big beach. I got lofted and dragged down the beach and just kept dragging at mach one in the water when it went from 10 knots to 20 in a heart beat on a big kite.

I really don't miss those old kites in our winds. :confused:

[popeye]

Yeah... my point really was just how fast real kitemares usually happen... and that DISTANCE is your friend.. you can't assume you'll always have time to pull the release, unhook, or crash the kite.

This guy was just "holding it down" like any of us would do... and then bam.

Problem is he was only one line length from shore and the winds were onshore to boot.

This could happen on any kite... it's just easier to have it happen on C kites. This could have been a 16 waroo inverting when it spiked to 30, or a 9M bow kite looping in 35 when a bridle or the bar snapped.

Distance distance distance... that was my point :)

Donkey dick hard to remove??? huh? You just grab the CL with one finger under it and pull it. It pops out instantly. Thats far better than unhooking accidentally on the beach and BAM full power and unhooked surprise!

bayflite is hardcore oldschool :) jokin with ya.

[popeye]

like the best t-shirt says

UNHOOK

if comming unhooked iz scary 2 u...practice.


unhook, it makes your tricks look better and really iz not that hard 2 do w/practice.

l8r

Which unhooked tricks have you been doing lately? Still struggling hopelessly with handlepasses myself :( I just can't get the kick up strong enough yet. I'm a fatty.

[ricki]

This came up on kiteforum a while back. Thanks for reminding me about it. More information and considerations appear at:

http://fksa.org/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4701

[bayflite]

"Unhook? Yeah right lol."

tom
it takes less time 2 unhook than it does 2 crash the kite and pull the quick release.

if anyone iz wondering...when i say unhook i just mean get comfy with your kite in a variety on situations.

some of us (me included) stupidly used to shackle ourselves to the c loop.

why?

cuz we were so scared of comming unhooked.

stupid muchacho's!

it's really not that big of a deal.

get used to holding the bar with the c loop line going between two fingers using one hand, and hooking in/unhooking with the other hand.

raul

your analagy iz flawed.

its not even apples and oranges, it's...apples and cars.

changing the kites camber/power by letting go of the bar gives plenty of room to unhook.

don't get me wrong. i like having the option of a QR, it's just not my first option.

[popeye]

Sorry, I completely disagree.

Speaking from experience here.

Unhooking is easy sure, but not when you are being dragged at 40mph and you have 600 pounds of tension on that CL.

Rauls analogy is dead on. It's equivalent to having someone loop your kite by grabbing the bar in 30 knots. Do you really think you are going to reach down and unhook before the kite throws you headfirst into the dirt?

Not a chance.

[BigR]

Funny stuff!



I'll bet anybody I can pull the QR on my kite faster than they can unhook,

beer, money, burgers, whatever

and yes there has to be tension on the lines, the more the better




I guess I have to show you the QR I use B 4 you believe that I can activate my QR faster than you can unhook Bryan.

Anyways, even if you could unhook with lets say 500# 's of force then you still have to actually let go/release the kite which is another step in the process which you go from trying to pull as much towards you to letting go.
My QR, the MORE force on it the More it wants to let go and in just one step. I use the cabby QR if N E body has seen it U know what I'm talking about.

N E body wanna hang on suspended bars upside down from a tree and bet on who gets released first?

[bayflite]

agree to disagree

[BigR]

Hey B, LOL!

my analogy is flawed ,

a better one is can I get unhooked from my CL when the elephant I'm hooked to starts moving

OR

when the race car I'm hooked to starts the tires burning?


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[popeye]

Hell yeah lets put this myth to rest.

Lets hook two people to my bumper in the sand at the skyway.

I'll pull away (making sure there is no slack first) accelerating to only 20mph without giving any warning. I'll keep the engine revving so you never know when it's coming. I'll even let you keep your hand on the CL before I go.

Lets see who releases and who ends up on their face :)


Any takers? Loser gets the beer and some band aids.

Too scary? Ok how about this. We put a rope in a tree... you swing back and forth hooked in. Lets see you unhook in under 3 seconds, and then lets see you pull the QR in under 3 seconds. I think the winning method is already obvious.

Heck, I'll do it tonight when I get home and make a video.

[Skyway Scott]

I will do the car one, feel free to floor it, too. Turn a huge wide turn, where the guy getting pulled ends up in the water after the drag :). Sounds like fun. Just don't break anyone's neck if it's obvious they can't get free.

The QR is going to work 80% of the time, unhooking probably won't work but maybe 5% (if you are Billy Parker strong), is my bet. I am talking about huge force scenarios, btw. The kind that you want to end, quickly.
Yeah, I can pull of of my CL in a normal force situation, but not huge force scenarios.
I once got dragged more than 200 yards down NB on a 16m C when a cold front "broke through" to 25 knots. It was blowing about 13, prior. It felt like I was getting pulled behind a 1,000 pound train going solid 15 knots. I wasn't going to stop the train and I couldn't pull my body toward it fast enough to develop any "workable" slack.

This was before QR's were around. I was pulling with all my might on the CL and also pulling on the center lines for over 30 seconds, with the kite at the extreme edge of the window and bouncing off the sand.
I never even so much as budged the CL from my spreader hook.

It was a pretty helpless feeling. I bought a snap shackle the next day. (Better than no QR).
I use to ride with a snap shackle not because I was afraid of coming out of the loop, btw, quite the opposite.
I was afraid of not coming out when it gusted really high, or when my kite did the loop of death.

I finally was able to (gladly) put my kite (way down by the lagoon)in a tree to end the whole deal.
That really sucked double whammy, because that was the day a lot of windsurfers (who only sail NB) saw "kiting" for their first time. They were not impressed, my kite was toast, my ego was hurt, and my body wasn't doing so hot, either. :(

[popeye]

Oh I know, lets do it in the water. We'll just hook the lines of two bars to my trailer hitch ... let them walk way out and hook in ... a full line length. Then I'll NAIL it for 100 feet.

Nobody eats dirt... but only one person will still be 100 feet out :) We can do it one at a time so they don't collide... or better yet, have them walk out in a Y pattern... they have to get unhooked before the DO collide LOL!!

Wanna try it? We can do it today at the skyway. I'll be there at 6.

[bayflite]

tom/raul
when did i say QR's have no place in kiting?
i like options.
i'll keep em.
peace

[Skyway Scott]

FORUM FIGHT!! :) :) Bayflite, let's do it for nastalgia's sake :p

Damn, I am gonna miss this experiment tonight. I really want to see it too.

[C. Moore]

Lets talk about the Hell Fish. That should start the fight up again. :)

[popeye]

So you're not so sure now are ya bayflite :)

[BigR]

Bayflite is right , back in the old old old days you would have to unhook to get rid of the kite since it was fixed loop no CL. I got drug across a nice number of bays that way.

and in the old days you stil had to unhook since it was a CL inside a fixed loop ( double loop )

only in the last 6 years can we now have use of QR , B 4 that it was all about unhooking

Hey Scott, my QR works 100% , not 80%. The more tension , the easier it releases

[popeye]

Back in the old days the accident rate was a lot higher too :)

Which is why (tada) they invented the quick release.

[bryanleighty]

one big missing item from all of this is that (in reading up on those have gone thru kitemares of epic proportions) ... many dont so much as let go of the bar much the less pull the QR or attempt to unhook. When shit hits they go tense and hold on for dear life.

I think its a pretty common instinct for those untrained in those types of situations to just hold tight and brace for impact. I know that when I got a minor loft a couple seasons ago I held on and got taken for a ride.. nothing to write up about other than when I came down I was in 3 inches of water and got a nice slam out of the deal before I was able to recover. happened too quick to react for my untrained self.. if i had been near a shoreline would i have reacted different?? dont know.. prob not..

I think that anyone can learn to unhook/QR or whatever if they were constantly involved in situations that they had to do it. Our problem is that we might only go thru something like this one time per year.. most of us one time per 5 years..

Stuntmen can throw themselves down flights of stairs without getting hurt because they do it all the time and learn the proper ways to fall .. hell.. that skater that fell those 40 or 50 feet at the xgames is alive today because he is so used to falling that his body reacted out of instinct to lessen the impact the best it could. at the last second he twisted his torso around just enough ..

For someone like me that has never had a real scare, I just hope and pray that I can find that QR fast enough or if that fails will have enough sense to do whatever I can to release the kite by whatever means necessary.

[popeye]

Here's the matching graph for the video.

http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/files/newgraph_55_169.gif

FWIW, when I had my big kitemare, I pulled the release (several times), tried several times to unhook, then I ran out of time... tried to unhook again after getting lofted onto the beach and running directly at the kite (it was pulling faster than I could run and I fell on my face). I tried everything... nothing worked.

Then I realized the one thing I didn't do was crash it as soon as I felt the first spike.

That would have ended it. Since then I crash early... it's easy and you can relaunch if you need to after it passes. Everyone knows you are in trouble, and it doesn't send your waroo down the beach for others to deal with.

Of course this means you have to ride far enough from shore that you can crash your kite without hesitation...something you should do anyway (in strong winds).

This guy had no chance... he had between 3 and 5 seconds to do something but was yanked so hard he didn't have a chance in hell of doing ANYTHING except contemplating his possible death. Too close to shore to just crash it (while he could, he probably wouldn't for fear of damaging the kite).

[Skyway Scott]

All that guy had to do was look at the storm, see the squall, and not ride.
It's really not rocket science.
Also, the same thing had happened two days in a row at that launch site, and people knew it. If a a shark is appearing and eating guys two nights in a row at 5pm, I'm not going to jump in at 4 45.

To prove the point, check out Doppler right now.
Then look at what it is blowing over on the east side of the bay (20).
Wonder what it's going to be blowing here by 5pm (probably 4:15). Is it a guarantee it'll spike?
No, but I am not going out there right now, rigging my biggest kite and monkeying around 40 feet from shore til it hits, either.

I know I am sounding preachy, but I would rather come across that way and like a nanny than have some new riders not hear this. There are ways to limit getting whacked. Checking out Doppler and wind histories from the past couple of days to look for spikes prior to riding are two good ways to limit odds of getting caught in a storm.

[ricki]

The windplot shown above was for two days prior to the accident. I understand the guy started in 9 to 10 kts. and it boosted to 30 kts. with a 16 m C kite at the time of the accident.

I put it in there because so many people, perhaps too many particularly in northern areas may kite regardless of incoming squalls. Most of the time you won't have a life threatening experience, just often enough to make doing so a fools proposition. Sorry for the confusion.

This is something to think about. In severe accidents, riders almost never successfully active their emergency depower for many reasons. You can try to reduce the list of reasons but I would work even harder on avoiding the violent weather in the first place.

[Skyway Scott]

Straight to 25 plus, at 4:05. Some things are fairly predictable.

http://www.iwindsurf.com/windandwhere.iws?regionID=149&siteID=812

Check out Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. Seems like 4pm is "feedin' time". :)

http://www.iwindsurf.com/windandwhere.iws?regionID=149&siteID=812&Isection=Last+7+Days

[t_twotone]

Distance would maybe have saved this guy. Looking at the video I think he did what 90% of us would do, try to ride out the gust. A seemingly hopeless scenario. Maybe we should ride unhooked until we have proper distance. I know I don't.

[popeye]

Nah... it would be even more dangerous to ride in that mess unhooked with no depower.

Two solutions:

1) Know what the weather is going to do (the previous day is a good clue).

2) Ride straight out and stay out. Minimize your chances of being caught in the gust.

You are right he did what 90% of us would do.... heck a bunch of us have been doing it for the past two weeks :) 10 to 30, like clockwork at 6pm.

[t_twotone]

Sh*t I don't even launch unhooked. Even if this guy let go with a leash, that gust would have put the kite on the beach. What if there where beachgoers. What do you do, let the suckers on the beach deal with it?