My final Kite Safety sign submission...

[bryanleighty]

Its a hybrid of the large and smaller ones (wider, less length.. how some like it I guess).. :)

Has all edits that were discussed by those that chose to discuss it.

This is geared soley for the Skyway Launches. EB, or even Gulf Beaches, signs would probably have to be edited some.

I am not a graphic designer. This was basically my best at copying the signs they have on beaches in Hawaii based on one that Tom posted in the original thread that sparked all this stuff. Anyone that can better re-work this, please do so.

Also.. I was looking at the coast guards website and tho they have contact info, for emergencies 911 is everyone's best bet. They can quickly get you to the right deptartment.

I know that if I was in trouble enough to warrant a phone call to help me out, please call 911 and send in ALL the troops!

I'd be happy to supply the photoshop file to anyone that wants it.

[popeye]

I think it's good .. the 911 is ok, it just encourages people not to stand there like a deer in headlights repeating "should we call 911?". I can't count how many times I've seen that. I believe 911 will call Eckered S&R ANYWAY if the situation warrants it so no real need to list them.

Anyway, I think it looks great. But if I get voted out and we loose the 911 thats fine, no big deal.

[Unimog Bob]

I think that is great! Thanks for taking the time to do it and re-do it. I was begining to lose hope after the BBQ.

[bryanleighty]

bob.. i was only at the BBQ for about 2 1/2 hours.. think you left before I did..
at about 7 a number of guys got together and started really discussing the options. first couple hours were just casual bs talk about all subjects. think the stuff i was hearing when I had to leave was really constructive talk.

also.. fyi on our boat.. Dan and I pumped out the gas tank last night and DAMN there was a lot of sludge.. dark dark murky crap. not sure if thats just build up from years and years.. or what.. but it was pretty gross and a lot of it. we can see into the tank thru the hole and it looks clean.. going to pour some fresh gas in there, swash it up and then pump it out and see what that gives us. I also bought an external tank with a hand pump primer just as a second option.

Thanks again for your help.. should know by tomorrow night if the fuel system was the problem (or just one of the problems)...

[Steve-O]

Brian....looks good. So to everyone happily monitoring this progress, what is our next step??? Should we go ahead and seek approval for East Beach?

Team Scott?

[amber]

So for everyone that isn't a green rider yet (dumbasses like me who still can't go upwind) this pretty much means that everytime i'm at the beach someone will probably come discuss this? I guess most of you know me by now, but is that what this will do? Students will need to wait until their instructor beleives they have crossed the line over to intermediate rider? just trying to get it figured out in my head.

[Skyway Scott]

I can go talk to Jim Wilson. It should be fun to talk to him about kiting.
I will give a call tomorrow and arrange to at his earliest convenience. I am actually pretty sure he would like to support us. If for some reason it doesn't work out, I bet it is due to bureaucratic red tape of some kind that he just can't cut through.

Scott Wolfe has volunteered to help me out as well. In case Mr. Wilson says no, I would like for Scott to be there as a witness that I didn't drop the ball.
Plus, I hear Scott can sell ice to eskimos, so if it looks like I am not doing so hot, I will just be quiet and let Wolfie take over. :)

[popeye]

Ice to INTUIT... eskimo is not politically correct. Better let Wolfie start the conversation after all :D

(I'm kidding)

[Steve-O]

Amber,

Great question and some thoughts on how it might play out. First off, people know you, you have been around awhile. You have spent alot of time on the kite and probably don't come off as a newbie. Remember what this is designed to point out......those that have no tag at all. It is those that will be questioned the most. Are they out of towners? Did you get lessons? How many? Is the right place for you to be riding right now? Do you need help? Ect.....

Yes orange/red riders maybe approached especially if they show they are not even in control of their kite, but hopefully they won't even receive the orange/red tag from their instructor until they at least have the basic fundamentals down and have had some success riding, relaunching, demonstrate good kite control and demonstrate successful launches and landings among many other things. One 2 hour lesson may not be enough for the orange/red tag. This will definately put a little pressure on both new rider and instructor to meet some goals before sending them on their way and issuing a colored tag.

I don't have control of how many lessons a rider takes, but if they don't achieve a certain level of skill, then they won't even get a tag until they do. Again, a guy or girl gets a few hours of lessons, buys a kite on ebay, and goes out and is a complete abortion. Hopefully he/she doesn't have a tag at all and this allows riders to put on a little heat on that rider, which overall will help keep our riding areas that much safer. Maybe it will give riders the ability to suggest more lesson time or a different location altogether. Isn't that what we are after in the first place???? Maybe I stand alone here, but I see it as a win win for everyone. It will take some time to get all the kinks out, but I am very impressed how far we have come in such a short time this past 2 weeks.

I think the sport needs some standards, and if we continue to discuss in a very positive and open environment, we will address some hard issues that we all face.

[popeye]

Even better, that new person sporting the new ebay kite, reads the sign, thinks uh oh I don't have a tag. Maybe I should find an instructor first after all.

[bryanleighty]

So for everyone that isn't a green rider yet (dumbasses like me who still can't go upwind) this pretty much means that everytime i'm at the beach someone will probably come discuss this? I guess most of you know me by now, but is that what this will do? Students will need to wait until their instructor beleives they have crossed the line over to intermediate rider? just trying to get it figured out in my head.

i would say you would only be questioned if you were at the Skyway launches...
at places like EB we need to re-work the sign ... maybe designate a new rider area or something like that.

[popeye]

My personal opinion is that E.B. is an intermediate spot. It's where most of our serious accidents have occured... I know of 3 right off the top of my head, two of which required EMS.

A Beginner spot would be somewhere like Big Beach (there are no trees,rocks,cars, or slippery muck there). But, I'm not going to push it. Just a personal opinion. I think the Intermediate line should stay but as a recommendation instead of a rule. Beginners should be accepted but they should understand it's at their own risk.

[Skyway Scott]

Okay. Let's clear this up fast, cuz I hope to talk to Mr. Wilson soon.

We only have 2 east spots, we already decided to limit the SW, that leaves EB as a beginner spot, right? I need input on this before Scott and myself go in to talk. I am a little gun shy about some saying I didn't tell Mr. Wilson what we wanted. I was basically going to say we want to promote safety and post a list of agreed upon safety regs that we have ZERO intention of him having to enforce. Is this correct?

The "enforcement" issue is key here. I talked with some people who are smarter than me last night and they made a very good argument to me. They said we need to figure out whether this sign represents recommendations or rules we plan to actually enforce (even if rarely). In theory, we can't truly enforce anything unless the park stands behind it and backs up our decision.

Phrased differently, are we ever planning on asking a park ranger to enforce one of our "rules" on the sign? This needs to be determined before I talk to him, because it will probably be his first question. My impression of Mr. Wilson is that he REALLY wants to be hands off and have us regulate ourselves.

If we plan on limiting access to EB using wording on the sign, this is going to lead to (possibly) a person talking with Mr. Wilson about his rights to do what he wants at a public park. Get where I am going?

The sign is awesome and I am pumped up about it :)
But, we need to decide whether it is recommendations that we recommend that kiters follow, or if we view them as rules we plan to enforce. If the latter, it ultimately puts the burden on Mr. Wilson to enforce a rule.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but someone much smarter than me convinced me of this last night and she is right. I am not on a true deadline, but the faster we figure this out, the better. Most are at work, tomorrow is Sat and Monday is a Holiday.
I would like to talk with Mr. Wilson on Tuesday with Scott and get this done.

Does anyone see my point here about enforcement? I was hoping we could use persuasive talk and "peer pressure" in our efforts to self regulate. But, if someone takes it a step further and tells someone they can't ride 'cuz the sign says so and the sign is on park property and the park manager is like "what?".... you get it already.

[Danimal8199]

Scott,

We are not the law, so how can we "enforce" rules? This sign to me represents recommendations/proper etiquette.

To get the park behind you I would imagine there would be alot of red tape involved. As a person (not you or anyone on here personally), one cannot declare yourself the top authority on kiteboarding and hand a ranger rules and expect him to just say "yes i'll enforce them" and accept them completely.

I would think that if you are adding park rules it would have to go infront of the pinellas county parks and recreation committee, go through their legal council, get votes and all that comes with anything in the legal and regulatory environment.

Obviously we are pushing the safety aspect here but I would def. approach it from a recommendation standpoint.

I think the best way to keep it safe and keep our freedom is to keep the park hands-off as possible.

This is though, a step in the right direction showing the rangers that we are serious about responsibility, accountability, and safety. Oh, and that we are not all a bunch of yahoos.

Danny

[bryanleighty]

i think we would all agree that a sign at EB would be different than at the Skyway.

I would say a sign at EB would need to be focused heavily on "guidelines" and less strict sounding.

take some of the "MUST" and "do not" verbage and change it to "recommend".

I would approach the rangers w/ the idea of putting up a "Safety Guidelines" sign.

[bryanleighty]

and..



this is my 1000th post.




i need to shut up.

[popeye]

I agree, the signs should be a lot of "Please", "recommend", and "encouraged". It's a sign to encourage safe riding practice thats all. MOST people will assume they are rules... and there is nothing wrong with us asking someone to leave. We can ask them to eat dirt too if we want to ... whether or not they do it is up to them... but they may not realize that ;)

Maybe we could remove the Advanced/Intermediate line for East Beach and change it to "Help protect our riding spots" or something like that.

What do you guys think?

[amber]

might be a redundant question, but green means intermediate and red means advanced? (broken down of course)

Scott...i completely agree that we shouldn't persuade the rangers at Desoto to want to "enforce" anything. Our recommendations are simply that and will hopefully alleviate some of the confusion on the beach and maybe even prevent a potential accident. These are not 10 commandments in which somone will be struck by lightning if disobeyed. Peer pressure seems to work well in life and i think it will with this too. Simple is best, so lets start at the bottom with basic "guidelines" and go from there. They are not chiseled in stone and we'll just have to see how it works for US. We should make the park aware of what we are trying to do (promote safety) and that's about it. (IMO of course!)

[Skyway Scott]

Scott,

We are not the law, so how can we "enforce" rules? This sign to me represents recommendations/proper etiquette.

Danny

I know. It seems so obvious :) That's how I see it too.
The way the sign is currently worded however, leaves room for less lenient interpretation. I just wanted to make sure the majority of you felt the same way, because the way I am going to phrase the sign to Mr. Wilson is that we envision it as a set of agreed upon guidelines or recommendations to promote safe kiting. I am just covering my butt before I present our idea. I want to represent the consensus. At the same time, I personally feel if that is our approach, the sign should more clearly represent our intent through it's phrasing.

Must, for instance, can't be used verbiage. It implies a possible fine or consequence from the park if disregarded.

Most signs (think about this) especially in a park, tell you what you can't do and have the backed up authority of the "head cheese", with a possible fine usually. I was probably pointing out the obvious. But maybe not.
Since so many hopped on and agreed with the obvious, can we then agree to change the wording to use more terms like - recommended and encouraged? This helps to strip a lot of responsibility off of Mr. Wilson and puts it back on us to use peer pressure and conversation as persuasion for riding safely.
The sign (although not a legally binding and enforceable list of rules), is a testament to what our local community agree are some safe kiting practices, and as stated, shows we aren't a bunch of yahoos. :) I think it'd be great to get it out there.

[bryanleighty]

"Help protect our riding spots" or something like that.

What do you guys think?

I think that might imply that there is some reason why we might lose our riding spot.. probably not something we want others to question..

EB sign would be as much geared towards the beach goers and spectators as it would the kiters. I'll be that non-kiters would read it more often than kiters.

Skyway sign should be a bit more strict in the sense that its agreed by local kiters and instructors that its a hazardous place to ride.

[popeye]

Ok, well lets just drop the intermediate/advanced line all together and remove the "must" stuff, for example "All kiters must use a kiteleash", change to "Please use a kite leash at all times". What do you think?

Bryan could you make these updates for rev4?

thanks

[bryanleighty]

one thing i think we can all agree to say MUST on is the kite leash.
"proper kite leash required" is a perfect way to phrase it I think.

before i spin cycles on this..
question for the local instructors regarding what they recommend to their students after their lesson(s) are completed.

How is EB / Ft. Desoto represented to the new kiter? is EB the recommeded place to go to for their after lesson sessions?

I do not want the signs to be contrary to what the students are being told.

if EB is the kite place of choice for all new riders (was recommended for me) then the sign would need to gear towards that a bit (among the other guidelines)..

if instructors recommend Big Beach.. then maybe a sign at EB should be a bit more geared towards intermediate riders and recommed extreme caution for new kiters.

[bryanleighty]

ahh.. i have nothing better to do today at work..

:)

took out some of the Must's and Dont's .. but still left a little bit of firmness on things that we should be firm on .. leashes.. riding too close to the shoreline.. etc,,

[Skyway Scott]

Hopefully this will get the go ahead from instructors and be good to go, soon.
Nice work on it, Bryan.

[TritonKiteboarding]

I deffinitly think its thorough and quality however i do believe it would be better to pass the authorities and provide the EC-SAR # 727 864 8256 I know that they're reaction time tends to be a bit more on the ball anyways as regard to marine rescues. Then they can contact authorities if the situation is over their head. Plus they're FREE.

[Danimal8199]

Can we also put up a sign that reads "Go big or go home"? This is the rule I live by, of course 200' from the beach and downwind of other riders, oh yeah, and with my safety leash!

I think that one is better, and it will take less money to make the sign since its one phrase...

On a serious note I think we are on the right track with the signage. Great job from everybody who is participating (including Amber..j/k)!

[popeye]

Looks good. Looks like the Ball is in Scott's court at the moment.

Thanks to everyone who helped with this.

[popeye]

Just talked with Scott but I will let him tell the details. The meeting with the Rangers went well.

Here is my sign suggestion for the upcoming discussion... a removable plastic sign small enough to fit into anyone's vehicle. It uses nylon tie down straps for mounting.

http://www.floridakitesurfer.com/pictures/sign1.jpg

[inferno]

check out the guy rip'n it on the two line kite, somebody get him a sponsor.....

[Skyway Scott]

Check out the guy at the tree. Is he wearing a back pack?

[amber]

i'm so confused...

[Skyway Scott]

IS that a guy in the picture or something else? I get confused at the thing on the right. Is that a guy made of rubber, or a toilet paper dispenser?!


http://www.floridakitesurfer.com/pictures/sign1.jpg

[bayflite]

200' buffer zone is definatley gonna take some gettin used to.
l8.

[Skyway Scott]

Yeah,

It's not as far as you might think though. That's less than 70 yards.
I can throw a frisbee that far.
That brings up an interesting point though. Maybe it should phrased as 200 feet upwind of shore (?).
In other words, being 200 feet offshore on dead sideshow winds seems pretty overkill, right?

[bayflite]

exactamunio

[popeye]

It's only two kitelines...it ain't that far.