Inferno's sign, everyone ok with it?

[popeye]

Bryan came up with the sign, not inferno... sorry I can't edit the subject or delete the thread. Duh.

Anyway, if he makes it wider, it won't be so long.

What do you guys think?

http://www.floridakitesurfer.com/pictures/kite-sign2.jpg

[Skyway Scott]

Unfortunately we live in lawyer land.....

I would axe the first line under the red area -
Due to the hazardous nature of this launch site.

If a FHP officer reads that and asks "what is hazardous?" it leads to the wrong discussion about kites in the road, etc., imo.

Also, the "what to do when a kiter is in trouble" section is fairly vague.
I am not sure if it sure be there for similar reasons. Anyone with the skill to help probably already knows how to do it.

Under ON the beach, number 4. Does the rider ready to launch have to wait for the incoming rider? I think it says the opposite under ON the water, number 2, unless I misread it somehow.

Otherwise I like it. :)

[amber]

looks good. i think that it still should be mentioned to discuss potential hazards with someone with an orange band before riding if unfamiliar with this launch area.

We can put whoever's website on there however i think that all local websites (triton, epic, kitesurfingpics.com, KiteSurFlorida.com, etc) that way we have a better chance of reaching more riders and appear to all be on the same page. we could even refer them to fksa.org on the signs and place a sticky at the top of the fksa site? That way it won't be someone's business/personal site so no assumption is made as to who is "in charge" or whatever.

[<jason]

Although one of u might be a lawyer or have a personal friend that is. But if not i am in and out of law offices all day in the tampa/st pete area...ie Lau Lane/William Schiffino/Buttler Pappas/Cullpeper Kirland to name a few.I could make sure no person/organization or affilate of this sign could be held liable in the event of an incident. Just tring to help, let me know.

[Gui]

Hi guys
It's great to see how things are turning out
This will be really positive for our sport in the area.
Well done

[bryanleighty]

scott.. check my post where i first put the sign.. i explain a couple questions you have.

steve.. when i mentioned a website or a name i was thinking only that maybe we could put up a simple info website that was not affiliated with any shop or instructors .. simply a site that had the exact same info as the sign with more detail descriptions of local launches or something like that. maybe this is completely unnecessary..

[popeye]

Even with plastic edging a metal sign on a 4x4 is going to tear you up. But so are the other signs, trees, poles, cars, and whatever else out there.

I say mount the sign to a palm tree with metal oir plastic bands thus add one less obstacle out there.

[Skyway Scott]

Bryan,

It looks good for the most part, good job.
I brought up the launching/landing stuff cuz you mentioned so many people mess up. I read your description on the other thread too and am not for certain who has the right of way from your description. It sounds like the first guy in the 200 feet zone has right of way from your description.
The thing is, it takes most riders at least 1 full minute to launch, while it takes a rider about 10 seconds to go from 300 to 200 feet out and keep coming in to land. Theoretically, this could make the guy/gal trying to get in the water after a launch have to wait while one or two come in. (This happens to me all the time, that's why I am belaboring it a little).

It seems like once the kiter launching decides to give it a go, the guys riding shouldn't come in to land (actually it's been tack real close in the past) until the launching kiter is out.
Is that what it says and I am missing it?

Are you assuming that all riders will launch from within the water as opposed to launch from land with the kite facing the water?

[bryanleighty]

scott.. i understand what you are saying.. i guess my thoughts were just that if they are on the beach trying about to walk out and there is someone coming in to let them come in to let them land safely.. and .. if the guy on the water sees someone coming out to ride first, they might want to back off.

but if we need to make a single statement on the sign i am 100% for saying "The rider on the beach just launching their kite has RoW" .. but that would mean that if they launch, they need to get going ASAP to allow others to come in.

basically just remove #4 from the On The Beach section..


so ditch the "hazardous" line
remove the "riders in trouble" section
and remove #4 from the On The Beach section..

[bryanleighty]

Anyway, if he makes it wider, it won't be so long.




never had any complaints so far.

[popeye]

Sign has been updated... see top of thread.

[JoshTaylor]

sounds good.. didn't really read to much on the other post (don't have the time to sit and read a damn book of a post) lol. but the only thing i don't seem to fond about is the colors being tied to our harness..

[Skyway Scott]

Looks good. I was thinking just can the 4 too. :)
Thanks for the efforts Bryan and others.

[bryanleighty]

josh..

the main point behind a small, hi-vis clip on the harness is simply to help ID intermediate and above riders. it is not an offical thing.. not something that anyone HAS to wear.. but hopefully would WANT to wear to support the efforts to keep the beaches safer.

no more, no less..

absolutely cool if you dont want to wear it.. if the system takes shape, you might just get asked "do you know how to ride" often by those that dont know you.

[Steve-O]

I am really stoked on how this is all going. This process we are on will be the easiest of the hurdles.

Getting signs built and installed will be yet another task but we all seem up to the challenge.

I also like the approach that is being taken towards the ID tags. Again it can't hurt. I think we have to think of this like a campaign. There will be those that don't want to get involved and the "that is fine" attitude followed by some discussion may sway riders to support the idea. I think it will just take some time to get everyone on board especially if they start to see the benefits of it out on the water and on land.

Small detail but if we are going with colors maybe Green should be used for experienced riders with the idea of "green light go ahead" and possible yellow for the beginner with the idea of "caution, watch out". Not to mention a bright neon yellow is much more visible. Red could be used for instructors with no idea except maybe "Hey, stop the hell what ya doin!!!" Just kidding.

On a side note, I want to shout out to Rick for the use of this forum. I think his original goal for this forum was to share ideas about safety. Well Rick, mission accomplished. This is a much more productive way of accomplishing goals especially with everyone's busy schedules. Someone asked when the next meeting is....well it seems we are meeting everyday and it is going well.

[Skyway Scott]

I agree with "switching" the colors as well. With green for "good to go" and orange for new rider. They make some really, really, bright oranges that are highly visible.

I remember Zack painted over my paint job on a board I sold him with that bright orange stuff. No kidding, the further away he got, the more easily you could see him... WEIRD.

Green meaning "good to go" makes sense too, like Steve said. :)
Also, once on the water, it won't be that distracting of a color.

[popeye]

No preference here... whatever works for everyone.

[inferno]

one more simple idea,
the tags are great, but when some one asks me to launch them i cant always see the back of the harness, or when they are up wind of me (like if im on shore and i see them heading towards me)...
maybe we could add taking two strips of colored duck tape and wrap it around each side of your spreader bar, very easy to do, cheap, and will in no way affect any of your gear...
(i am a little concerned that teh tag on the back of your harness may get caught up in a handle pass leash setup, especially when doing passes)

[bryanleighty]

danny.. i dont think there is anything wrong with just asking.. if someone you have never seen before asks you to launch them ask them "have you kited here before?"... good conversation starter.

plus i typically will walk up to someone and ask "can you launch me" and then walk back to my bar..

i ALWAYS ask whomever I let launch my kite "do you know how to launch a kite? have you done it before?"

even with them saying "yes" to both statements I had one very near kitemare due to some idiot launching me before i gave the thumbs up..

also.. I was the idiot once when I thought I knew how to assist bayflite in a launch on his ram-air kite. luckily the winds were not high and he was able to recover from my misunderstanding of what needed to be done to launch those kites. (i had seen Trent launch his numerous times and thought i knew how to do it..)

[Danimal8199]

I think it will be more effective if all riders that are intermediate to advanced wear green speedos and beginners wear bright orange bannana hammocks.

This is the only way to see the rider that is coming at you from all angles.

On a serios note, I have been following all of this but have not commented yet. I think the sign is a good idea but I feel its a bit lengthy.

It should be a warning sign not someones first kiteboarding lesson.

No one is going to want to sit there and read the entire thing when they are itching to get on the water.

Then when there is an incident and you ask someone if they read the sign they will say "kinda" or they "skimmed over it".

Is there a way to just hit the high points, a cliff notes version perhaps?

[bryanleighty]

i see your point...
maybe a smaller sign w/o the list of rules.. just the "intermediate and advanced riders only" and details on the harness clip colors, riders are responsible for their gear ..etc.

something to discuss..

would be less costly. easier to mount.. easier to replace if needed.

[Skyway Scott]

I think it's just the right length. If someone gets in front of it, it will only take 2 minutes to read.

Also, the sign (to me) summarizes what we have all agreed upon and is sort of a symbol of "agreements". Bystanders will probably read it as much as anyone and it will probably serve to represent our good intentions to them as much as reveal to other kiters our "rules".

In addition, as stated, it will probably end up on here, and in other places for others to view.
The sign is about as long, right now, as those at most pools or hot tubs.

[Skyway Scott]

Well, except this hot tub's sign, maybe.

[bryanleighty]

how about this condensed version.
to the point.

[amber]

i like it.

[Skyway Scott]

I personally think the sign as shown on page 1 of this thread is as good as it gets. :) The condensed version is so short, I don't see the point beyond pointing out newbies, and then it becomes a "newbie-centric" sign. Unsafe rider behavior isn't defined on the condensed sign.
On the other sign you focussed in on jumping close and riding close to shore.
Is it that we don't want to list those ideas on a sign?

I only know me. If I pulled up to Jupiter or St. Augustine... etc. and I saw a sign, I would read it for sure. I would actually feel better seeing a sign and being able to read about the local expectations. Obviously, if most riders were breaking most of the rules on the sign, I would probably just do what I wanted. If they were following them though, so would I.
That's just me though. Some won't care about the local "rules" and disregard a sign.

[bryanleighty]

i agree w/ you scott.. when i was in HR they have a sign that is probably 8 foot wide at the event site.. it has a large map and is very detailed about where you can and cannot launch and land. its the least a new rider to a new area can do to get the low-down on the local spot.

for locals, i am sure everyone will take a read through it...

i definitely dont want the first sign to be the only option.. anyone else w/ other topics to add or lines to delete, please step forward. this is not my project.. but something that we should try to get through before the winds come in.

i know that as soon as the winds are here, the last thing I want to do is sit around and type crap out on this forum.

ugh.
:)

[Danimal8199]

There have been so many pages over the last week on safety and signs and bands that I may have missed this, but has anyone talked to a county official about mounting the sign? Both sides of the skyway?

I took lessons from Randy at the skyway a while back, and have never riden there since, but isn't there a trash can bolted down near the launch area at BS? That might be a good place to mount it...

[bryanleighty]

agreeing on sign - phase one.

getting sign(s) made - phase two

getting signs mounted - phase three..

there has been some talk about phase 2 and 3.. but not too much.

i do know that for the skyway we are looking for minimal to zero involvement w/ officials if possible. might not be possible tho..

[BigR]

OMG

This thread is still wandering around after so long?

Are we re-inventing the wheel?

Or building a bridge? Or a Space Shuttle?

http://www.fksa.org/showthread.php?t=3038

[Danimal8199]

Should someone find out if we are allowed to mount a sign (on public property) before we make the sign, or there would be no point...

Or do we just mount it and hope no one takes it down?

I vote for the space shettle, can we set up another poll?

[bigairal]

at east beach IMO ask for permission to put up a sign since you know the rangers. at skyway do not ask permission the property is owned by the DOT
i think we will draw unwanted attention to the inherent danger. better yet have randy put out a portable sign. just my .02 cents

[ricki]

Securing permission to post a sign from public authorities can sometimes be a very difficult task. Aside from approving content, size, location of posting, etc.., providing reasonable justification for the sign can be damaging all by itself. In some jurisdictions, there is no posting of signs by anyone other than the governing entity. We have had cases in the SE where we had to abandon the effort due to all the public hurdles.

Where you have good, existing close relations with authorities such as some launches within Ft. DeSoto you might broach the subject carefully and see where things go.

If you don't have groundwork already laid with key individuals within the DOT or unless a parley is already unavoidable based on past incidents, I would advise caution in seeking such approval. Do your best to know the answer before the question is formally asked in other words.

What has been done in other areas is to put up temporary signs that come down at the end of the day. It isn't perfect but sometimes it is the best first step available. Also, I would circulate the sign content far and wide through shops, events, instructors, on forums as has already been suggested to help the effort along.

[popeye]

Well, here's my opinion on the sign.

#1: 13 votes to 3 say it's fine... so lets go with that and leave it as is. Check.

#2: Just talked to Scott and he and Scott Wolfe are prepared to talk to Jim at Ft. Desoto if everyone is in agreement. They have talked with him in the past so they have a pretty good dialog going.

#3: Who can get the sign made and for how much. I figure we need 3 of them, two for skyway one for EB. The one for Each Beach toned down a little for beginners.

We just need a final decision regarding the emergency numbers on the sign. I recommend Eckerd search and rescue, and the ranger's office on the E.B. Sign.

Just eckerd on the skyway signs.

Rick is right about the skyway signs... I think some temporary signs (but heavy duty) might be the best approach.

[amber]

Tom- great job breaking it down. Too many posts for many people to sift thru to get to the main points. I know that there are a lot more than 16 riders in this area who have an opinion on this matter because many of them have been on here making comments/complaining for at least the past year. I hope that those people speak up and offer their ideas instead of waiting for the 16 of us to work hard getting something put together and then bitch about how they don't like it. So for those of you who are reading this... Simply reply with basic agreements/disagreements/suggestions, etc. Or at least vote in the poll!!

Signage w/the ECSR # sounds great and the rest of us with websites/businesses, etc. will all post the same info on our websites or in our shops.

[Danimal8199]

Sorry I am a little delayed on getting involved with this, I was on vacation for the last 11 days.

I think the idea of the portable signs in a great one and perhaps randy would be willing to set one up when he is out there, since he is out there the most. If its portable then there really only needs to be one for what ever side the wind is blowing on.

Does anyone think it is a good idea to perhaps post the hazards at the sky way diagramed similar to what use to be on tampabaykiteboardin.com?

[Skyway Scott]

I think what the last 4 posts say, especially RickI warning about the SW are dead on. What if we try EB first and see how it goes?

[Steve-O]

I think it is obvious we will not build the signs until permission is granted.

If you recall, Matt from Eckerd may be able to secure some funds from the college to help get these things built. He also mentioned that the adminsitration at Eckerd may be able to help get permission with a sign in the park.

Any updates Matt???

Let's wait to hear from Matt. Maybe he has made some progress. If not let's send in Team Scott to see what they can negotiate.

If we get some approval, I think that will really get things moving.

[Airgasm]

Sign looks great....idea is even better. I've seen many variables riding here in the UK. It's surprising (and encouraging) how often people gather around them and discuss the content....which is exactly what we want of course.

They also do the harness tags here in a couple areas, although they're Port Authority regulated and distributed through the local surf shop. However they are surprisingly visible and durable.

Cheers,

Chris B.

[popeye]

Scott is one of the (few) riders who has been around here since the beginning and he already has a good relationship with the Rangers.

I think he should just have a friendly discussion with them about it... if they are unsure then let Eckerd push it.

Thats just my opinion... but if Matt has actually done something with Eckerd than by all means lets give it a shot. Problem is, I don't expect that to happen as quickly as Scott driving the 15 minutes and meeting with Jim. The longer this takes, the sooner everyone looses interest and the less likely it is to happen. This isn't the first time we've tried to make a positive change... and it won't be the first time if everyone looses interest and it falls to the wayside.

Jim is a nice guy and he was on our old forum until I pulled the plug. I talked to him at East Beach the last time we had an ambulance show up and he was very friendly and open regarding the situation.

Once you bring in lawyers or a paper trail everything has to be done legally and documented. Do it on a handshake and it gets done twice as fast without the time and expense. No need to wait for funds for a sign before we get permission... it's not like one sign costs so much that we need funding.

Just my opinion. I expect E-Bone, at any moment, to show up and lay it out in a short novel form with an interesting plot.

[inferno]

the trap is set... the bait is laid....now we just wait...

[bryanleighty]

as per phone numbers on the sign....
what is eckerds search and rescue? the coast guard?

or is 911 sufficient?

I think affliating the sign w/ any group could be a potential issue. would hate that to come back on us.

what about just the # for the local coast guard and 911.

[Skyway Scott]

You might have some valid points there, I don't know. Seems like Eckerd would only be useful with a "drifter" scenario, but that's when we could really use some boat support.

Here is ECSAR (unless it's changed in a couple years).
I used them a lot when I had a boat, starting back around 2000 or so. It's still in my cell phone
727 864 8256.

They were always helpful and free. Better than SeaTow for inshore stuff. :)

[popeye]

Helllooo..... ???

This has gone on too long already.

Team Scott(s) deploy when ready. That's what I think anyway.

[bryanleighty]

agreed.. i think those that have been active in this topic have said all they can.

All has been VERY positive and we all deserve gold stars. :)

I think the sign that is posted in the beginning of this thread with the addition of proper emergency contact info is the winner in this debate. debate is still open.. just think those on this thread have come pretty close to an agreement.. if others want to jump in, please do!

Next steps will need someone(s) to step up and volunteer to take the reigns about getting the signs made and then posted. I know the folks from Triton had mentioned that they might be able to assist in this.. that would be great.

My big concern is that the windy season is heading our way.. I know that last year the forum went completely to the "LETS RIDE" mode. If we bust out this sign and get organized with harness clips ASAP then we can focus on whats really important to us.. learning how to do kiteloops. (well thats just me ...)

Also.. Jayson posted that he was to have a follow up meeting with the local politician.. I believe that anything we can do as a group and get as much positive media/local/community attention will go a long ways in how we are perceived.

Thats it. I am done w/ this for now.

[ricki]

The FKA will put up $100. towards the signs/tags to help things along. Please PM instructions on where to send the check.

I second leaving off contact info aside from emergency services on the signs for now.