Time to get organized.. stop the b.s. and get some stuff done.

[bryanleighty]

Maybe this could be a forum thread that is b.s. free and just a slinging back and forth of ideas on how we can do as much as we can to regulate our launch areas before things get out of control and others do it for us.

Fact is that if there is a serious accident involving someone other than a kiter things could get ugly for us. We are becoming a densely populated group and many communities around the state and the nation have already imposed limitations. That is probably inevitable .. but.. if we get our shit together now and forum an organization with the best intentions, it might be the only way we can show that we are doing all we can.

** It will be impossible to stop all accidents or all new riders from doing what the hell they want.. but if we had some sort of agreed on organization it would be a great place to start **

There are a number of issues in our area, but the A # 1 thing that needs to be addressed is identifying new riders.

I have always liked the idea of wearing some sort of color band or tag on our harnesses or leash line to indicate either our level of kiting skills or something like that.

If we had some color of band that just indicated that you were a competent rider based on a certification or something it would be easy for other riders to identify them.

Maybe another color that indicated a certified rider but also one that was of a "mentor" status that anyone could come talk to regarding help or questions. I know that when I started, if there had been someone that could have talked me through some of my earlier sessions after my lessons it could have kept my "learning mistakes" to a minimum. A mentor would not be an instructor, but just someone that could help out those that had post-lessons questions. Someone who would be willing to put down their kite to assist others on the beach for a short while to keep things as safe as possible.

None of us know who the new riders all are, but we know they have questions and just really want to get up and riding as fast as possible. If we has some sort of identifying ourselves as approachable riders for all questions it might be just the thing to get the newbies starting the conversation instead of us trying to identify them through their bad habits and having to start the conversation ourselves.

And then maybe another color that indicated full certified instructor.

I dont recognize 80% of the people on the beach anymore.. I am always willing to help those that need help.. If new riders knew that folks with a certain color band were there to help, it might be enough to get conversations started.

This is just an idea.. but I think if we honed it down and figured out a way to get the message out on what the colors meant it could alleviate some issues.
Maybe a Green band for all riders, a Yellow band for mentors and an Orange band for instructors. Get a snazzy logo on it and figure out a way to get is distributed to all local riders and figure out a way to get local instructors to use it for their students.

More ideas? better ideas?

[inferno]

not really that bad of an idea.... but i dont think you will be able to get all new riders wearing a certain color, some dont want to be known as a newbie... thats just the way it is...

but i would have no problem wearing a wrist band that signified a fairly competent rider that welcomed any questions from newer riders

i was thinking the cotton ones that football/soccer/baseball players wear, but it wouldnt dry well...
maybe we can get mr ebone to sew us up some from some sort of quicker drying elastic material....

[amber]

the rubber bracelets like the lance armstrong ones wear well in the water but do fade.

[Skyway Scott]

Someone please research this idea as it relates to the mangrove bandits "inner circle of communication". I just don't want to unknowingly wear the "wrong" bracelet. :confused:

[toby wilson]

Okay, let's self-regulate then!!! I looked into the cost of getting some wooden signs made up. The cost for some small 4'x4' plywood rules signs is:

$155.09 per 4 x 4 Plywood sign. This puts the total for 4 of these signs (one at front side Skyway, one at Backside Skyway, one at East Beach (pending Rangers approval) and one at North Beach (pending Rangers approval) at $620.37. We would then obviously need to add posts, concrete to pour in the hole to hold the sign in place during storms, etc but we should be able to self regulate with signs for about $650.00. Now we just need to raise the cash to get these produced.

[amber]

Roy has some nice rainbow colored ones. Seriously though, i have a big box of catalogs from a promotions company with TONS of stuff. i'll look thru it tonight and see if anything jumps out at me. I'll get back on the forum tomorrow morning at work (don't have a computer at home right now)

[popeye]

Both pretty good ideas (bands and sign). I agree the beginners will not wanted to be labeled as such, but if the instructor "recommended" they wear the bracelet it might help.

"If you wear this green band the guys will know you are just starting and will help you out if you get into trouble. Anyone wearing a red band will help you if you need it at any time ... that means they are volunteering to help beginners on that day."

That would have made me wear a green one when I started. I remember being terrified I'd get in someone's way, or do something wrong and piss someone off, or hurt myself.

If I'd known who was friendly and willing to help me out it would have been a lot easier than going to big beach to ride alone.

Put me down for a mentor, helper, volunteer or whatever you want to call it, and I will wear it every time I ride ... as long as it doesn't secretly mean I am gay or something.

[amber]

the problem is that it seems not many new people still feel "terrified to get in someone's way" like many of us did. I always feel more secure knowing that somenoe is "keeping an eye on me" just in case.

[oldschool]

ya' I am old school but here is how I have seen it done and got it done ...

ya' see someone who is irresponsible you just have to have some nads, go up to him (or her) and say you are a danger to yourself and others and get off the beach

I have seen this happen on the back side of the skyway once and at Desoto (and I really respected the kiters that stood up and did it)

we have a couple kooks that kite periodically in SRQ and Venice and we just tell 'em to go home and get lessons

this swill piss some kiters (newbees) off but it is the simplest and most immediate way to GET RID of a problem

OS/Sarasota

[bryanleighty]

oldschool..

problem w/ that is that you dont know who is the newbie or not..
2 seasons ago i knew everyone at every launch i did..

last season I might have recognized 25%.

its a zoo out there.

i think a single color to signify "competent" & single color to signify "mentor" would be fine..

new riders would not have a band .... would never want to put a "newbie" band on anyone and no one would want it that way.

i am thinking something that attaches to the back of the harness or clips to the safety leash.

basic scenario would go something like this:

you are at the beach.. see someone rigging and they dont have a color band / harness clip thingy and you simply go up and talk to them..
they say they are visiting from somewhere and have been riding for 2 years then you say .. cool have fun..
no band needed..

or..
they say they are local and just got lessons and you tell them about the color bands and let them know that once they are up to competent level they should get one so that they are not questioned every time they show up at a beach.

if they are backside you might say "hey .. this is not a place for beginners.. you should go to ***** instead.. "..

if this is a positive thing for all, it will more accepted. if its used as a way to discriminate against new riders, then its absolutely pointless.

we would need to agree on who could distribute the bands.. should not cost anyone a single cent.. just something they can wear to show they know what they are doing so us old folks on the beach dont have to wonder about every single unfamiliar face we see.

we might need to get a handful of locals together at the undertow to talk specifics..

[<jason]

Hey oldskool..thats a bad idea. If im doing something wrong show me the right way to do it like someone showed you. You come over and tell me to get off the beach your probably gonna get your ass kicked. This is the wrong way to go about this. Most of us are adults and will welcome constructive critisizim(?) But telling someone to get outa here......not so good.

[TampaBay Noob]

you could just laminate some green paper and put some symbol or signature on from whoever hands the cards out. Then just put a metal clip on it and walla. Should be cost effective and the signature could verify authenticity.

[TritonKiteboarding]

id be happy to help eat the costs with the school funding we got for the club this year, including but not limited to signs at beach, Locals Bands/ Distribution, built in air compressors @ EB and Skyway, Safety Clinics for local officials, St. Pete Beach Police, ECSAR, St Pete Police, Local Coast Guard, Desoto park Rangers, ect...

If anyone has local contacts with people to coordinate these things it would be appreciated, I already have the ECSAR, and police contacts covered.
-TritonKiteboarding.com

[Wolfie]

I think the labeling system is a kick ass idea and will help however I can! I too would be happy to provide my limit knowledge to anyone and help out anyone who looks to be in trouble. I will sign up to be a "mentor" if we are going to get this thing going.
As for fixed signs at Skyway...who would you even ask? And is it worth asking the DOT to have one there? I'm not sure I would temp fate on that one quite yet. East beach might be easier, since the rangers there seem to be comfortable with us and we are more "legitimate" there.

[DanB]

I support Bryan 100% percent - It is getting worse every year.

My suggestion is we draft a simple charter 1 page - we can borrow from many I have seen on-line and get the colors down and what type of band thing.

We don't have to wait and get everyone on board if enough of us start it then we can use the upcoming season to promote it.

I also would think some bumper stickers would work well to promote and identify anyone who is part of the organization.

[Skyway Scott]

Eckerd College Search and Rescue seems like a winner for sure. They don't have any real authoritative power to tell us what to do, but at the same time could offer great assistance in a time of need.

Several people, especially E-bone, have brought up some valid points about self-regulation and the exclusion of outside authority, hence the term self regulation. E-bone's view, if I remember correctly, was that by inviting the authorities (people with the power to pass regulations) to the table, we are potentially inviting regulation on our kiting activities that might vary from what we actually would like (a ban for instance). His points seem valid and we might want to consider in greater detail having discussions with the police. I don't know. I obviously have talked to some authority figures in the past, and as I recall, caught hell for it.

It might be a good idea if we successfully figure out how to police ourselves and prove how responsible we are to ourselves before we try to include outside authorities. Just a thought. I don't know the right answer.

I kind of like the band idea, but am a little unsure on it's final goal. The "problem" at hand, that several of us have agreed to it seems, is that riders that can't consistently ride upwind probably shouldn't be at the SW and they pose a threat to themselves and our access. Is that the consensus?

If so, how are we going to make sure that riders that can't sufficiently hold ground and maneuver around riders not ride at the SW?
Isn't that one of the primary self policing issues? A sign seems cool, but it just sits there. Ultimately a real live person enforces what the sign says, right? Who and how is that going to happen?

Telling a totally clueless person to put down their gear is black and white and quite simple for me to do. Telling a person to hop off the water due to a qualitative judgment gets trickier.

Or do I have it totally backwards? Are we going to basically all take on one kiter under our wing each session and make sure they get back to the launch area at the SW after they drift to the rocks? Are we each going to wrap up their "lesson" to the point that they are somewhat competent?

There has to be a reasonable approach in there somewhere. Don't instructors often evaluate their own students and give them some sort of skill level ranking? Maybe we could have a SW level ranking. It gets tricky fast, no doubt.

[Optionryder420]

The people that are going to cause problems at the beach past having a few people just talk to them, are always going to cause problems.

If having someone talk to that person and tell them they really shouldn't be riding and it's a danger and they blow them off, how is a colored piece of cloth, or a sign going to help?

The furthest that we should have to go is to have someone or a few people tell the person they're a danger and they need more lessons.

Having signs out there wouldn't solve anything. Because if there are signs there stating rules, and somebody breaks the rules and gets hurt, wouldn't it open up liability for the land owner? You know, since there's nobody there enforcing the rules, it's that persons fault.

For instance, take east beach for example.
We place a sign.
New guy comes out doesn't see it. Gets somebody to launch the kite, or launches it himself. Someone stops the person, tells him about the sign, and he goes and reads it.
New guy decides he's above the rules on the sign (which we all would be anyways since it's just a random sign we concocted and placed without actually having any legal rules).
New guy launches anyways and gets hurt.
He could claim the rules were there, but he didn't see them or there was nobody there to tell him they were there.
New guy decides to press charges against the park.
Park is pissed, bans kiting.

The only way I'd support a sign or any of the other stuff is if it was official. Which I wouldn't want either because if the rules are being enforced, people would be caught breaking them all the time and sooner or later the spot would be banned.

We want to police ourselves without being noticed. A sign is a bad idea. The wristband idea isn't bad, but I don't see it as really working. There are far too many kiters to get them out to everyone whom rides.

I'm not even worried about the beginners so much as the guys whom are jumping WAY too close to shore and jumping in other people's way constantly.
This is an issue that REALLY needs to be addressed. If a new ignorant guy whom has never taken lessons gets hurt, it can be seen as just the guy who grabbed a huge kite and tried to do something stupid. Now, if a more advanced rider goes out and gets hurt/hurts others then we will be more viewed as a whole.

Take for instance Josh (I'm not picking on Josh, I actually never see him jump really close to shore hence why I'm using him).
Let's say Josh is riding off of Redington Beach, jumping close to shore, throwing mobes, showing off for the ladies, and just having a great time. Then on a jump really close to shore something breaks, or something goes wrong and he smashes into a girl, a really hot one even. How will it make us look that one of our Best riders caused such an accident? People will pull for a ban on kiting because if such a competent rider can still cause such an accident then nobody will want ANY riders near them.

Just my $.02

[bryanleighty]

what say we get together Sept 1 (saturday) or Sept 2 (sunday) for a couple hours to have a drink, get some food and discuss the options.

i KNOW that a system in place will never be perfect.. but if we have to try something now before this season.

We can never tell someone they cannot ride at SW.. but if we can identify those new riders before they are on the water we will be one step ahead of where we are right now. If a large portion of the local kiters agrees to something like this I will bet you cash money that a huge percentage of the new riders will see the benefits as well.

signs at the launches might not be feasible .. EB signs might not work as they may make Ft. Desoto liable. not sure on that..

Another major thing to think about... if we have a local organization in place and make it as public as possible it might go a long ways to show that the majority of the group is serious about safety and responsibility. This might come into play if an accident does occur...

We all should take Steve up on his cert offers. I know he mentioned he could do it for cheap for all interested.

Steve if you want to get a date/time in place I bet a number of folks would show up to get certified.

[amber]

I will be in michigan for labor day weekend, but i do have a suggestion to throw out there that is a bit strange to some of you but that has worked in other water activities that i have organized.As soon as i can get a break here today i'll explain it in detail...

[popeye]

I'm not really sure where this thread is heading... but i am all for people getting their self recovery cert because recovering boards for people who can't body drag, and recovering kites for people who can't self rescue is getting old. Yeah I always do it, but these are things they should have learned and practiced in their lessons...

However, while that is a start it doesn't take care of the current problem.

Who are going to be the kite cops at the skyway (or anywhere else), and how many of us are going to back them up when they try to convince someone they should not ride at that particular time for whatever reason?

This has to be agreed... if X comes to you and asks for help confronting someone you drop what you are doing and round up a few more people to make it clear it's a group feeling, not just one safety nazi trying to be a dick.

BTW, I did this not long ago with Scott and Bob at PAG and we were pretty much blown off and ignored. I posted our experience here, then it got real ugly, got roasted, but there was finally some positive change... then I heard it was back to square 1 a few weeks later. Hopefully that's not true, we don't ride there anymore.

So, while I am all for doing something, I am not convinced anyone will take it seriously, especially some of the local instructors who are doing their own thing.

I would get a dialog going between instructors before proceeding any further. After all, they are the ones who pushed out all of these new riders at $75-$100/hr so they should be the ones taking the first steps regarding their safety. And who else are these riders going to listen to and respect, but their instructor?

So get all of the instructors to agree on something and I'm sure we'll all go along with it.

[TritonKiteboarding]

\
BTW, I did this not long ago with Scott and Bob at PAG and we were pretty much blown off and ignored. I posted our experience here, then it got real ugly, got roasted, but there was finally some positive change... then I heard it was back to square 1 a few weeks later. Hopefully that's not true, we don't ride there anymore.
\

..... not true, 203 918 6637 since you dont ride here anymore call that number and get the first hand update.
-Matt Sexton
TritonKiteboarding.com

[amber]

okay. this is a VERY VERY rough sketch of this plan. We've been using it in the YMCA for many many years for keeping track of who's who and what level they are at.

Its basically a large pegboard with hooks in each of the holes. there will be a container of "cards" (not sure the details on this one yet) that you could write your name on in wet-erase marker or grease pencil. Here's a basic idea of the layout...

It won't let me send it big, so if you want to see it in better detail, PM me and i can email it to you...

There should also be an asterix on there that states something about always looking out for yourself and also your bro's...whether you/they are a great rider or not.

[popeye]

..... not true, 203 918 6637 since you dont ride here anymore call that number and get the first hand update.
-Matt Sexton
TritonKiteboarding.com

Great, thanks.

[Unimog Bob]

I’m all for getting a cert card, no problem, but that doesn’t help spot trouble before it happens without adding some sort of visual indicator. I was thinking of colored wrist bands. one color indicates you are a proficient rider or better. Another color means you are proficient and also willing to help out and monitor. A third color would indicate I’m still learning and I’m open to suggestions. No wrist band gets you some questions and an invitation to qualify for an arm band. Either the monitors or the instructors could hand out bands. I also think some signage would be helpful too.

Bob

[amber]

there are problems with the wrist bands that i'm not sure how to address. First of all, what happens when i progress from a red to a yellow? Who decides? What if people forget their bracelet or from out of town. How do we know that one of the kite-police will be at all major launches all season?

If we had boards at major launches, we can keep track of how many people are there, and when they write their name on the tag, they can put "blue waroo" or whatever. So if someone arrives later, they can check in, check the board to see who is on the water and what level they are at. If someone is wearing a red bracelet, chances are that i will not be able to see what color it is until he is too close! :) The buddy board would not have to be "manned" all the time. That way if there's 5 riders at a launch, they can check the board when taking a break or arriving and see who they are riding with. Rules and regs can be posted on the side of the boards. Just some ideas. Staffing is a large problem for a lot of this and the boards are pretty much self sufficient. (we will need people at the beginning enforcing "checking in" but that would have to happen with bracelets as well.

[skempthepimp]

Lots of good ideas. I'd wear a wrist band or a colored kite leash or whatever and something definitely needs to happen. I'm in for a beer and a chat but not on Sat the 1st. Signs would be great and are worth discussing but I think Skyway Scottie is right; who do you ask for permission and what if they react by just shutting us down. It almost seems to me like we need to have some sort of organization or local club ( I don't know how to get around liability with this, but...) and when I walk up to someone with my cool club sticker or patch and tell you to get off the water and go to EB I speak with the support of every other member. To be a member you would have to pass an instructors' skills or certification test and earn your way in. Triton Matt, I think your energy is awesome and I think with the support you have with Eckerd and the support Eckerd has in the community that you could maybe pull strings to make some of your suggestions happen. We could even use some similar type of format from your club to starting an independent organization. I don't know but it's worth looking into. (PS. the air compressor idea rocks)

Skyway is without question an intermediate to advanced riding spot and if we want to keep it we need to grow some chest hair and keep newbies outta there. When I was learning I probably went to skyway 5 times to watch the sessions but I knew I had no business riding there.

It is also important for us to stress to newbies that not every windy day is a good day for them to learn. Riding one windy day in the middle of summer is not the way anyone is gonna learn. It took me 2-3 months to ride upwind consistently.

I saw that guy at skyway and almost said something the moment I arrived. I thought though that I saw him ride upwind a couple of tacks so I sloughed it off. Now I wish I would have because his monkey kite was a 12 m and he had it up b4 the wind came, which raised my flags since i saw 16 m's on the beach waiting for the blow to happen. But I only knew 3 people of about 25 out there and I ride that spot maybe 10 times or so a year, so I don't know if Joe Blow is a regular or not. But if we had an organization or some way to identify ourselves as non newbies then I think as a community we would recognize unqualified individuals b4 they even launch and avoid more accidents. If we avoid 1 accident then it's worth it.

[popeye]

Maybe the bracelets could be something like the following:

GREEN: less than a full year of experience
YELLOW: more than a full year of experience
RED: instructor or volunteer (someone expecting to be approached for help)

This eliminates any sort of qualification test... and everyone is labeled either beginner, experienced, or someone expecting to help people that day.

Generally anyone with a yellow band can help but the red bands are expecting it. When you feel you've had enough of being kite bitch for the day, you can take it off and put your yellow one back on.

If you don't have a band, you are assumed to be green.

Thoughts?

[amber]

I think that sounds like a definite possibility Tom. Especially the part about no bracelets automatically being green unless they prove otherwise. there would still need to be rules posted somewhere about this because not everyone reads the forum and there are some kiters that kite as a hobby (not a lifestyle like many of us). They're not around enough to keep up with the latest stuff so we'd need a way to get the message to everyone arriving at the launches. (including newbies)

However... people like Matt Sexton picked up kiting in a few sessions and has turned into a great advocate for the sport around here as well as one of the best riders in the Tampa Bay area. I would trust him with my life WAAAAAY before I would some Tom, Dick, or Harry who has ridden 5 times in the last two years or has taken more than a year to become competent.

There needs to be some other sort of qualifications that don't need to be tested, but described. If you look at the attachment i posted, you can see descriptions of 3-4 different "types" of riders and those can definitely be expanded upon (i thought them up real quick in the middle of work).

[inferno]

GREEN: less than a full year of experience
YELLOW: more than a full year of experience
RED: instructor or volunteer (someone expecting to be approached for help)

If you don't have a band, you are assumed to be green.

Thoughts?

sounds ike a good idea, but not sure how well it will work...
i know some riders that have been kiting over a year but only get to do it everyonce in a while and are not extremely good at it yet, but then you have riders like josh (the ripper) that can throw more moves then 3 trick scott :) after only a month or two.....
2 cents

[popeye]

Yellow isn't a statement of skill. It means we don't have to babysit.

If it's obvious that someone can't ride, they are not given a yellow band.

I don't think a board with chips, skill levels, etc is going to work ... it doesn't identify the rider, and it requires a sign every 300 feet along a beach for clips rings, whatever. If I ride up to someone on the water during a down winder or something and ask them to hold/catch my kite, how do I know if they are a beginner? I can't go back and look at the register board.

The bands on the other hand can be done right now, without any major cost involved, and it's obvious even on the water.

Either instructors can hand out green bands to beginners (which I don't expect to happen), or everyone else can wear a yellow band.

I really expect only yellow and red to be used.

So if someone is wearing a band, you can safely assume they know what they are doing. If they are not wearing a band, and you don't know them, you can assume they are a beginner.

The real advantage of the band is to say "hey, you don't know me, but this band is telling you I know what I am doing so don't worry about me".

Of course the only way this will work is if everyone who has been riding for awhile is willing and remembers to wear the bracelet each time they ride.

Another option might be to do a single wrap of yellow electrical tape around one side of the bar.

This wasn't my idea, I'm just trying to refine it.

[amber]

i think the bands could work but definitely need work and agreement. However, i think the reverse colors would be better like a traffic light. If you see a red rider you should watch out and look both ways. A yellow...stay a safe distance and use caution but not a hazard. Green bands mean you can sail thru being confident that the green rider is a competent and safe rider.

The part about the downwinder makes sense but i don't think most of our safety issues exist with downwinders. its with crowded launches with hazards. these would only need to be posted at the major launches in the area. (EB,skyway,lassing,PAG? etc)

The tags on the board would identify the rider and the kite they were flying. When you arrive, you walk (don't need to be every 300 feet) to the board, check in and see people's info. and add your own. When you come in to take a break (every couple hours or so) you take another look at the board if you notice a lot of different/new kiters on the water since you started.

Another feature that we used at the harbor i worked at in the keys was to write weather forecasts for that day and possibly the next. Just like in boating, if its windy, they put out small craft advisories. If it is gusty and possibly hazardous wind, we can point that out on the boards so that when people arrive they have suggestions. such as "very gusty, onshore wind...not recommended for green riders".

Just throwing out thoughts as well...

[popeye]

However, i think the reverse colors would be better like a traffic light. If you see a red rider you should watch out and look both ways. A yellow...stay a safe distance and use caution but not a hazard. Green bands mean you can sail thru being confident that the green rider is a competent and safe rider.

The part about the downwinder makes sense but i don't think most of our safety issues exist with downwinders. its with crowded launches with hazards. these would only need to be posted at the major launches in the area. (EB,skyway,lassing,PAG? etc)

The tags on the board would identify the rider and the kite they were flying. When you arrive, you walk (don't need to be every 300 feet) to the board, check in and see people's info. and add your own. When you come in to take a break (every couple hours or so) you take another look at the board if you notice a lot of different/new kiters on the water since you started.

Another feature that we used at the harbor i worked at in the keys was to write weather forecasts for that day and possibly the next. Just like in boating, if its windy, they put out small craft advisories. If it is gusty and possibly hazardous wind, we can point that out on the boards so that when people arrive they have suggestions. such as "very gusty, onshore wind...not recommended for green riders".

Just throwing out thoughts as well...

Good ideas, but maybe a bit too hopeful at this point. We are struggling to even get people to park in the right place.

I understand the board idea... I've used it while racing r/c cars, kart racing, r/c flying events, etc.

But, when you look at the board and it says "Mike, beginner, green waroo" and you look out on the beach and see 15 green waroos, it's not very helpful.

On the water, forget it. Half the time I can't even remember the names and faces of people I've met a dozen times already, much less Mike on a green waroo, or the 30 other people who are on the board I can't read from the water.

In kart racing, a beginner usually has a white X on the back of his helmet. This tells other drivers to avoid him like the plague and give him plenty of space while passing.

It seems to me the arm bands are probably the easiest solution so far. You can almost always see a rider's wrists... even while they are body dragging.

But, since we won't know who the beginners are going to be, the only way we can do it is to wear one if we are NOT a beginner.

If you're not wearing a band, you're either a beginner, not a local, or just not familiar with how things are being done now and someone should walk up and ask you some questions and give you a band if you need one.

It's like the "hey, u guys know me and know I can ride" club... either you're in it, or you are not.

If Stevil wants to do a skills checkout for beginners before they get a band, that's fine with me.....

Hell I'll be the first one to wear the band too, I don't care. I'll sleep with it on
if I need to remember to wear it.

We'll need one in rainbow for E-Bone.

[amber]

i'd love to hear others' ideas about this topic... I agree the board is being hopefull but it an idea that we can keep in the back of our heads for future reference. :)

[Optionryder420]

I like the band idea. There's no way I'm going to go out and spend the money to get certified just so I can have someone launch for me. I almost always have someone with me whom launches my kite anyways...

But really, what will we do if someone doesn't have a band?

Just talk to them?

What if they blow you off?

You've gotta at least try enforcing what we already have (buddy system) before throwing money and added ideas to the problem.

Before launching ANYONE you don't know, how about assuming they don't know what they're doing. Ask them how long they've been kiting for and even just test them on some hand signals before you do.

Problem solved without any wristbands.

[Unimog Bob]

Like in many things I think keeping it simple is better. After some reflection, I’d suggest using just two colors. Green for competent self-sufficient rider and above, red for volunteer mentor/monitor. Those without bands would be those still learning and requiring close supervision at difficult launch sites, and also newcomers. A sign could be posted along the lines of, Kiteboarders, this is an intermediate to advanced riding site, please talk to a kiter with a red wrist band for more information. Then some disclaimer of liability. The Red bander could then issue a green band upon demonstration of skills or suggest alternate launches or lessons. Anyone without a band would end up getting approached so often they would want to get a band, and there is no color that carries a weenie stigma. I think just super fat rubber bands would do, you can't find them just any place and it keeps the cost down so when I forget mine I can beg Scott for another without feeling guilty.

Bob

[BigR]

Make it simplest of all , wear a ribbon on your kite to say you are a local + proficient <> not have one , you are a beginner / non local.


If anybody wants to step up to talk to non ribbon people then they are welcome




P.S. I prefer kite ribbons b/c thats what I'm focused on, how close their kite is to me; what their kites are doing; I really don't pay too much attention to boards or the people on them just the closest 5-7 kites to me ; that'd be soo cool that I would also attach whistles to my kite to add to the effect as it does a kite loop

[TampaBay Noob]

I like the way Tom views the matter. You can't really make people identify themselves as a something less-than-average. Nobody would be willing to do that. The idea is that without having the band they will be doing it to themselves. This idea of a band is feasible. If enough of us join in on it....those without the bands will just want to be "in the club" so to speak. It would also make the kiting scene look more organized to park officials, police/emt, and so forth when they notice some sort of a system that's been enacted. It will legitimize us and look as though we are actually taking steps to ensure the safety of our riders. For the rebels out there...We won't be able to keep them off the water, simply due to the fact that we have no authority. What can be done is a simple conversation to those without bands and give them advise on what they should or shouldn't do. If they choose to ride, at least we all know to stay the hell away from them. I would think after being approached time and time again for not having the band that person would eventually make the effort to find one. Obviously there would need to be more than one person dishing out the bands. Maybe people from our little fksa community that ride the most and in certain spots to make sure the bands get out to the most people. There's a few of us that are always on the water when there is wind....it could be done.

if it's something like a ribbon on a kite rather than a band that's fine too.

[CrazyJay]

Hello y'all,
Sorry I haven't had a chance to read the last 4 pages of this novel so if I overlap anyone please dont take it personally.
What happened last week was very unfortunate. Hopefully the rider will recover quickly. After recently suffering a bad injury myself I can relate.
I agree that there needs to be a "policing" of ourselves.It can be done formally or informally. My opinion is that the best way is to post permenent signs at each congested riding area (I think Toby mentioned this).
Granted, to some this may seem like it will cause alarm but I think it, more importantly, shows that the Tampa Bay kitesurfing community cares and is taking action to educate and protect the riders and bystanders.

IT IS ABSOUTELY NECESSARY THAT WE POLICE OURSELVES, BUT I THINK IT IS JUST AS IMPORTANT TO HAVE THE "POLICE" ON OUR SIDE.

Please check out the thread that I am starting "ST PETE KITESURFING POLITICS" to see how we can guarantee that kitesurfing will NEVER be banned in TampaBay.

[popeye]

I do agree that getting organized is not going to draw negative attention. If we ask for a sign to be posted, they will either be impressed, or just not care at all.

One thing is certain, we have to do SOMETHING, and we have to stick to it.

[TampaBay Noob]

People don't follow traffic signs...why would they follow one of ours? Signs are only good if they are enforceable, which ours is not. If noobs want to ride they're gonna ride. They don't realize their skill level. It took me 3months of riding before I was self-sufficient and would even show my face to you guys at our launches. New riders are going straight to the skyway after the lesson. WE need to police it...not a sign. The police could care less about us putting a sign up. Unfortunately, nobody follows the signs they put up.

[popeye]

You are right, but most newbs will not know if it's enforceable or not.

And, as long as a few people point it out and enforce it themselves, it is in effect enforced. Sure they could give you the finger and you couldn't do anything about it... but then again you could kick their ass for it too. But I'll leave that decision up to the enforcer and the situation.

Fact is many signs are not enforceable... like "Do not walk on grass" but 90% of the people with any moral fabric at all still obey them because their parents raised them correctly... and of course they do not like someone giving them a hard time when they know they are in the wrong.

There is no reason we can't have a sign and still do something else such as rubber bracelets.

At this point ANYTHING would be better than nothing at all. I'm also pretty sure Jayson (who is pretty creative) could have those signs made for less than $165 each. I think we really only need two (if we can get permission from Ft. Desoto... pretty sure that can happen. Both Jason and Scott have a good relationship with the rangers).

[TampaBay Noob]

I just think that a sign ALONE won't do a whole lot. I have morals like most and try to follow the rules, but there are many more who disregard them completely. I would have no objections to the sign if still enacting the band idea. In fact, I would encourage it. I just think, for new riders, the goal is really to fit in with the other kiters and make some new friends. Part of the "fitting in" process would be to get the band so they aren't looked at like a hazard to us all. They would be much more welcomed that way.

[bryanleighty]

but something is better than nothing..

if we post a sign then at least we can say to some new rider on the beach "hey.. this launch is for experience riders only.. did you read the sign?"


i still am wanting to get more ideas on how to make it more newbie-friendly.. but if we can get a sign at our local launches, thats a great great start.

Jay.. do you know if the rangers at Ft. Desoto would allow us to put one up if we can get one together? What about how to go about getting one at the skyway launches? Would that have to go thru the city?

[CrazyJay]

Skyway wouldn't really be an issue since the city doesnt claim it and the county doesnt want it. Also it isn't a "city park" so no issue there.
East Beach would take some negotiating with the rangers. Either I or Scott could talk to them about this. It definitely needs to be presented to them in the correct way. The city parks dept. has a rule against posting signs that we need to skirt somehow.

[popeye]

Maybe we could provide the sign, and Ft. Desoto would install it. I am about 90% sure that the head ranger would be happy to do this... he is a nice guy and has been concerned when people got hurt in the past... not because he wanted to ban us but because he actually cared. He was there when bayflite earned his name, so he knows our history. The worst thing that is going to happen is that he will say he can't do it because the city won't let him (legal reasons), and that's the end of it.

It's worth a shot. It's no secret that everyone rides there!

However, PLEASE nobody take it upon themselves to do this. Let Jay or Scott make the call if thats what we are going to do.

[Steve-O]

Interesting couple of days for all. There are some seasoned folks out there that I respect alot. May not always agree, but still have alot of respect for what they have witnessed over the years and what they are trying to accomplish today.

I did mention awhile back about posting some signs at these very same spots, but no one seemed to be very interested. I am glad to see that it may become a reality.

I agree 100% that either side of the Skyway is no place for someone to hone their skills after their lessons are complete. The signs for these areas should indicate intermediate to advanced riders only. Upwind ability is a must. Jumping close to shore should be avoided. Hazards of the skyway area should be posted.

As far as East Beach is concerned, a different approach should be taken. This is a great spot for someone to hone there skills. The experienced riding area should be defined. It should be suggested for new riders to walk way upwind of the riding area and start their walk again once they have reached the riding area. I don't feel East Beach should be labeled an intermediate to advance spot the way the Skyway should be labeled. Education is key. If are bands are used, then new riders should be told to approach someone with an armband for help and advice. Rules of the road should also be posted on signs. Parking should also be addressed. Wrapping lines. Common courtesy basically.

All instructors of the area should be on board with these policies and incorporate into their lessons educating their students on how to approach east beach and how not to ride the Skyway. I have done this since day one. This info is all covered again in a 2 hour session in the shop before a student even flies a kite. It is the ultimate ground school as it pertains directly to kiting in the bay area and keeping things safe. I hope more will follow this idea.

I will do my part to educate new riders before entering the water, but it will be ultimately up to the riders of the areas to see it all through. Especially when a visitor shows up or someone that has not taken lessons all that seriously.

We will have 6 PASA certified instructors on staff this upcoming season and two boats at our disposal. The majority of our lessons will take place out of site, with an occassional lesson at East Beach on light wind uncrowded days. We will educate riders about the dangers of the Skyway and promote East Beach as a training ground to hone one's skills. All with a good sound plan of course.....walk up wind, go out on less crowded days, know your limits, and practice safe and courteous kiting.

So for those clowns that show up at these launches and seem uneducated, I think these signs, and armbands will be a good step towards keeping it safe and coming together as a kiting community. I believe whatever is decided, anything will help. Doing nothing is the worst idea of all.

Please let me know if there is anything I can do.

Steve-O

[bryanleighty]

i think for skyway.. we could put together a sign that is aimed directly at kiteboarders with a number of agreed upon rules listed...

for EB the sign prob would need to be more towards the spectators for their safety and then some rules for the kiters..

fact is that I have pulled up the EB many times to have a couple families of 4 with their car parked to the shoreline, the kids playing in the best launch area and the parents preparing for a nice day at the beach.

we have to respect them and their rights and i think by gearing a sign for their safety might be better than trying to claim EB as a kite beach.

Something to think about i believe.

[popeye]

Well, lets start with the rules.

Lets start with just 5 rules and see how that goes. Pick the 5 most important and keep them as short and to the point as possible.

Examples:

1) Do not kite without proper training.
2) Please do not jump or ride near shore
3) Please roll up lines and secure kite when you are not riding
4) Please do not park or sit near launch areas
5) Watch chidren at all times

Change these however you feel fit... it's just an example.

[toby wilson]

How about adding

6) DO NOT MAKE MAN-LOVE IN THE MANGROVES.

[Skyway Scott]

Because it sounds like the instructors may be getting together quickly to discuss the situation, I have some suggestions that may benefit all involved (they are just suggestions).

There are quite a few local instructors now, I think they total 15 or more (at least 10).

My suggestion focuses on East Beach and ignores west winds and the SW for now.
EB on NE to SSW winds is probably where many (not all) local riders will practice after recently receiving lessons. In terms of where new riders practice that may "jeopardize a spot" or "interact in a dense crowd", EB takes the cake.

Since local instructors know most new riders (they just taught them) it might be possible to pass out a common colored wrist band to these new riders from all local instructors. As stated by others, I don't view this band as a stigma. On the contrary, I would be more helpful to a person with this newbie band and less likely to yell at them on the water following a mistake (I do occasionally yell, if I think a vet cut me off on purpose... if it were newbie, I would just stay away or politely stop him and take a minute to explain)

Okay, here is the beef of my suggestion. On weekends that are forecast to be breezy out of a direction suitable for EB, could the local instructors communicate amongst themselves to arrange for one (maybe 2) instructors to not teach anywhere, but instead volunteer to be at EB to help out with these new riders (that are recognized by the newly given out band from instructors)?
If they were ten instructors and it blew every single weekend, that would be about one weekend every 2.5 months if one instructor was the "watch man" and designated helper at EB.

The watch man would generally just be a giver of advice and a watchful eye. He/she might also talk a new rider off the water in really windy conditions, etc.

The other thing the watch man could do is note the progress of the newer riders, and at some point, through communication among instructors, give them an "upgraded" band, signifying they are qualified or ready to ride at the Skyway. Until this qualified band (or ribbon on the lines) is received, maybe we could assume the rider shouldn't be at the SW, or at the very least, be more keen to him.

If the instructors accept this initiative it will be a very strong signal of responsibility to our whole kiting community about just how serious you guys take instruction, helping with progress, education, and safety. It's a suggestion that allows you to take the lead, if you will. We (the local riders, non-instructors) can then play a supporting role (maybe following a similar model of volunteering once a month for an hour, or similar).


No one is better qualified for this "continued education" of newbies following lessons and it's a possible means to also monitor progress (upgrade bands). I think it's a good idea. :)

Any thoughts, Steve (s)?

[amber]

If the red (watch out) wristband idea is to be used, here's a few thoughts. instead of explaining to the new riders that they are dangerous, spin it into a positive thing and tell them that their color signifies a new rider who can be monitored by experienced riders in case they get into trouble. For those that say "i'm fine" or whatever, then we can take a bit harsher tone and explain that in order to keep our awesome launches, the local community has agreed upon these rules (on board) and if you choose not to comply, find another launch (very nicely and using better verbage of course).

FYI. i looked into the promotions catalog that i have and there are four things that stood out.

1. the lance armstrong type bracelet : 99 cents per bracelet but a minimum of 300...i'm sure we could get them in a smaller quantity somewhere else, but this is a good reference. they come in many colors including glow in the dark (hello night ride!!!) and rainbow for e-bone.

2. The party bracelets that we have all worn to get into bars, clubs, etc. They are disposable so people won't have to remember to bring them and they come to 28 cents a piece for 500. 15 colors to choose from.

3. neoprene wrist bands (reusable obviously) at 1.60/bracelet with a minimum of 100. this one comes in hot pink for ebone and chamo for roy (to go with the rest of his gear of course)

4. They make plastic luggage tags that are colored that can easily be put onto the back of someone's harness (or somewhere out of the way) they range from 1.38/piece for 250 to more simple ones for 79 cents for 250. They both are about the size of a standard business card and come with a rubber strap to attach to you, your luggage, etc.

If anyone has other ideas for identification of riders (the luggage tag could be really great because you could put your name and emergency contact right in there (where you'd put your name on an airplane).

I'm 100% in agreement about the signs. I think that as the season progresses we will be running into trouble and may need to implement the next step in the action plan which would be the braclets, tags, etc. and it would be nice to already have a product picked out instead of rushing around looking for a piece of duct tape to strap to my forehead saying i'm a yellow. :)

As a former certified watersports instructor (still certified by the way but OBVIOUSLY not for kiting :) i think that the instructors working together can bring so much to this sport/community. I am really looking forward to the things they come up with and their dedication to safe and happy riding. High five to the instructors that are comitted to this.

[amber]

some people may not be happy about it but i think one of the rules should include that if you are kiting, your dogs should be leashed to your car, a tree, etc. if you are there to watch them, that's great. i love letting my dogs run in the water too, but if i'm on the water, they become nothing but a liability and in many cases, a nuisance.

[Wolfie]

Just a reference to other signs that have been used in other places:

http://www.fksa.org/showthread.php?t=3038

[popeye]

http://www.fksa.org/albums/album223/HKA_sign.jpg

[popeye]

Scott's idea is pretty good.

I think this is a GREAT opportunity for Kite4Life/TritonKiteboarding/WSW to get the instructors together and ENCOURAGE COOPERATION regarding safety at our spots.

1) Passing out beginner bands to new students and upgrading it to a another color when they have more experience.

2) Beginner bands ride at East Beach but not at the skyway.

3) An instructor at each location to encourage safe riding practice.

If Jim the head ranger showed up at East Beach and saw that we had a system of instructors who are volunteering to help and encourage safety i am sure he would be impressed.

The instructors would naturally benefit from the contact with riders.

This seems opportunity for kite4life/Triton/WSW to make a positive impact on the sport.

[TritonKiteboarding]

Kite-4-Life and Triton Kiteboarding are in the works of organizing signs and a band system. We are using the suggestions from this thread to base our decisions. We will have a meeting this weekend with a number of instructors agree on a final decision about what should be mentioned in signs and how the band system will work, the progress will be updated on the forum and if anyone has any questions call me and i'll fill you in 203 918 6637. We realize the importance and the urgency and were handling the issue asap.
-Matt Sexton
www.TritonKiteboarding.com

[inferno]

i think this sign is a must have:confused:

[Steve-O]

Scott,

I like your suggestion. Armbands are a good idea. Instructors will need to make the call when to upgrade them to a self-sufficient rider. I am sure we can get together and hash out the details of that. Simple enough. It will take some time but we have about a month left before the winds really start coming. It may take a little time thorughout the season to iron out the kinks, but overall a great idea.

All other riders in the area that are self sufficient will ride with a seperate color right???? Remember, we need to clearly be able to identify a non locals or locals that shows up, is having problems, and no arm band. Think about it, someone approaches you to launch their kite....you don't recognize them....you look for an armband....they don't have one...it sparks a conversation. Maybe you put them up after they convince you they are sufficient....but you still keep a watchful eye. Maybe you don't. Your judgement may then stem a variety of scenerios after that. But at least you had some info before even launching the kite. It may not work 100% but it is definately better than the system we have.

Ok back to the topic of instructor volunteering....

Keeping a watchful eye and doing a rotation I also think will be simple enough to coordinate. Someone will have to be in charge to make sure their is coverage. If all the instructors agree, then I am sure we can come up with a schedule of rotation. I know Matt and his crew from Triton spend alot of time down there. My team doesn't, but I am not saying we can't have a representative when it's our turn. I don't feel the burden should be left to Matt just because he is there alot.

Steve S. and myself will try to spearhead a meeting soon to put something together. Those that want to be involved will. Those that won't won't. Hopefully the kiting community will support those instructors and schools that want to make this happen.

Signs signs....yes let's make some freakin signs already. It's long overdue. It can't hurt. We (the instructors) can get the armband thing going and the coverage. The veterans out there need to continue to discuss the signs and get something to happen. We are so close to this being a reality. We should set a deadline for Oct. 1. I think that is a reasonable timeframe for both projects. If we can send Billy to Cabarete in less than a week, we can pull this off in a month.

I think all those that give input, keep an eye on the big picture.

Signs.....yes!
Armbands....yes!
Instructor watchouts....yes!

Let's not get bogged down by all the details.

I would like to elect Steve S. to be in charge of the instructor meeting. He brought it up, and I would like to see him see it through. I will assist in this area.

Amber seems hot on the armbands. Let's figure out what we want, how much it will cost, and where the funds will come from. I will hit Steve LeVine and WSW and see what he can contribute. Maybe some kite companies can sponser the concept. If we gotta raise funds than we gotta raise it.

Jayson seems to be hot on the sign area. Maybe he can spearhead that. Again content, cost, constructions, and red tape.

Let the ideas flow, let's try not to re-invent the wheel. This could be a hard undertaking, but let's not let it.

We will keep you guys posted about the instructor meeting and how that all pans out.

Steve-O

[Steve-O]

Matt...just saw your post. Let's get together this weekend. Where and what time. I am free on Sunday. I think we are on the same page with this.

Let's talk soon!!!

[TampaBay Noob]

I like where this is heading. This will def. keep us in the good graces of most officials. Steve-O....if we wanted to try and make this a county-wide kiteboarding system I would be willing to handle north county. I just don't ride south as much as I do up here. Keep up the good work guys. :)

[popeye]

I also like where this is going.

Good work guys... and hats off to everyone who contributed ideas to this thread.

The last post from Kite4Life+Triton and Steve-O pretty much nailed what we are trying to accomplish.

We have enough instructors that it should be easy to rotate... and we really only need them at the most common spots (EB and Skyway). No reason they can't ride too if they have someone else with them to keep an eye on whats going on while they are riding.

We probably only need two colors (newb and self sufficient) unless the instructors want to wear their own color (not a bad idea).

If this system is implemented and we have an accident, we can honestly show that we do everything in our power to promote safety .. and that could make the difference between a ban and just an unfortunate accident.

That said, I don't think there is anything else I can so I am out of this thread so you guys can get some work done.

[Steve-O]

Just got off the phone with Steve LeVine owner of WSW. He will contribute $100.00 to the purchase of armbands.

I think the rubbery kind will work best and easiest to see.

Amber are those the Armstrong kind???

When folks are done riding they can put it around their rear view mirror until the next session.

I like the idea of 3 colors. 1 color for self sufficient riders. 1 color for new riders. 1 color for instructors.

I think we can divide the armbands amongst the instructors of the area and they can get them passed out to the appropriate level of rider.

I am sure this will be an ongoing process. We just need to keep it simple.

[Skyway Scott]

Cool. :) Just a couple more suggestions, some of which have already been stated.

It's such a minor detail and I don't want it to bog stuff down, but ribbons on the kite lines at about 20 feet up have a few advantages.

One, you aren't likely to forget your ribbon, once it is on your lines, it's part of your equipment. I am oh so likely to honestly forget the arm band, that I bet I wouldn't have it one most of the time out of bad memory. I see us going thru a larger number of arm bands (lost, forgotten) than ribbons.

The ribbon can be also be seen from a further distance and from every direction, as well.

It might be advantageous to just focus on EB for the first couple of months, in terms of the signs and the instructor watch-outs, to make sure one area is "kick ass" with coverage instead of several all being "so-so". EB is a "hot spot" for new riders, so to me, this makes sense.

I think a little cooperation from a large number of people is going to go an awful long ways to insuring kiting safety and fun.

[popeye]

I don't care for the ribbons... I'd rather see one consistent indicator. But that doesn't mean I am against the idea either.

If you forget your arm band it's your own problem... a bunch of people are going to keep asking you if you know what you are doing and encourage you not to ride at the skyway :) After a day of that you won't forget it next time lol.

[Steve-O]

Ribbons are cool. I think they will be cheaper too. What is everyone else's thoughts. Something to hammer out at the meeting. I just think that it will be something up for discussion and hopefully everyone will support the outcome.

[Skyway Scott]

I will go with whatever the majority vote is.
Thing is, I am moderately certain that the ability to see the wrist band when upwind of someone will be exceptionally marginal. No biggie, we can always switch one for the other. ;)
Just getting it in motion is what counts.

[popeye]

If someone is about to catch or launch my kite I'd rather see a wrist band than guess which kite which belongs to them.

But I guess the instructors can sort this stuff out.

[Unimog Bob]

I can usually spot a newbie in two seconds once they are on the water. I need help telling if some one has a clue on the beach, and thats where questions need to be asked.

It would be nice to have some indicator out on the water that a rider not only can go upwind, but they understend right of way or they're not going to jump right in front of you.

I'm kind of cheap so I was thinking of using extra wide colored rubber bands they are cheaper than armstong type and they don't have them on the counter at the gas station.
http://www.rubberband.biz/custom.htm

[Steve-O]

Ok some great dialogue. It only seems from a few, but I am sure more are reading just not commenting.

There are two concerns that I hear.
1. Identifying someone on the beach that isn't with their kite.
2. Identifying someone on the water and their ability.

I feel that the armband concept would be an immediate indicator as soon as someone gets out of the car and starts to set up. It is something that everyone can see and look out for. Again prevention is what we are aiming for. The lack of an arm band would signal a discussion before someone even launches their kite. It may stop a problem before it even starts or at the very least allows for some healthy discussion of the rider in question. I think most new riders will admit their inexperience, but if asked to leave and go to East Beach may be tricky. We'll have to see how it works. We won't know until we try. Everyone should be sensitive to anyone in question.

Like stated before, a newbie can be spotted a mile away when on the water, but not necessarily when setting up their kite and preparing to launch.

I think the armband is the way to go as it covers prevention and shows a unified effort right on the beach. Something that will go a long way when a discussion is brought up with a rider in question. Imagine a new rider being confronted and as they are being spoken with they see all these armbands on other riders. It will be a lot harder for that rider to show resistance.

Again, I think we will have to go with an idea and see how it works. I am certain we will have to tweak it as time passes.

Your thoughts on this are welcome as I am sure some type of decision will be made this Saturday.

By the way.......are we having a race this year?

[popeye]

Steve-O, sounds good. I agree with everything you said. Looking forward to seeing how this works out. If we keep it simple, I think it will.

[Skyway Scott]

After reading this, it does sound like bands will most be most useful for most riders. I suggest (the obvious) make them very bright and have the colors substantially different from one another, maybe bright red and bright yellow.
Oh, please don't have us wear some 80's "Staying Alive, John Travolta" arm band, please. :)

[Skyway Scott]

Anyone remember the Ultimate Warrior? He combined wrist bands an arm tassles which when used in the proper combination, made you look like a true bad ass :) :confused:

[TampaBay Noob]

There are two concerns that I hear.
1. Identifying someone on the beach that isn't with their kite.
2. Identifying someone on the water and their ability.

Like stated before, a newbie can be spotted a mile away when on the water, but not necessarily when setting up their kite and preparing to launch.

Why not attach this band or ribbon to the back of one's harness. Most of us walk around the beach with our harness on anyways, even when we're taking breaks. Seems to me like that would be a more suitable location for this indicator...whatever it may be. You'll see it when the kites are down and you'll see it when people are flying. 2 birds...1 stone

[Steve-O]

Yes, let's try to keep this thread on track. Let's review the goal.

Identify experienced vs. inexperienced riders.
Use the identification system to keep launch sites safer.

Secondary goal
Utilize instructors to monitor our launch sites for dangerous situations.

[popeye]

Since non profit orgs can still profit and employees can still take a salary it's possible someone misinterpreted your promotion and membership fees as you pushing your own agenda.

Obviously this is not the case. You are trying through your org to provide insurance, etc, to instructors and riders and that is respectable cause.

For now, to prevent confusion, lets just focus on a method for identifying new and experienced riders, and try to get instructors to enforce/use the system.

That's really what this thread, and the meeting this weekend is about.

We are trying to prevent another accident.

Maybe someone else could talk to Randy again later (after a system is developed) and see he'd be ok with just giving the bracelets to his new riders. Once he sees the system in use he may change his mind.

[inferno]

I want nothing to do with any of this.

i guess you wont be getting a wrist band then.... you'll be a newbie for life... :)
J/K

[Skyway Scott]

I will gladly wear the band and abide by agreed upon rules.
I'd just assume leave the rest up to others to avoid being entangled in anything.

[bryanleighty]

Ive been trying to find something for this ID band/card/thingy..

went to west marine to see if they have any Hi-Vis clip-on tags or something similar.. I really think something that simply attaches to the back of your harness is the best that way you dont have to deal with the wrist band every time..

Something that might attach with a locking carabiner... definitely dont want this to catch on any lines or something like that..

maybe just a simple hi-vis laminated card attached to the harness w/ a carabiner.. something small but visible..

If we want to get more official we could probably get some custom made plastic tags that we could attach to our harnesses with a fancy logo or something on it..

[ricki]

Streamers, wrist bands, tags and stickers have been used in various parts of the world. I would choose something that is easily visible, unique, non-divisible and readily breaks away if tangled by a powered up kite.

People can be pretty strange about this sort of thing given that they exist solely as a rule to allow them to continue to ride. Guys have counterfeited stuff, cut streamers in two to share with friends, etc.. I wouldn't get too obsessed about making it totally inviolate but would consider some past problems along the way toward putting together what you will.

Important point, I second the sentiments about doing something. It is easy to have things die in committee with the problem still remaining. So, figure out the minimum needed, what seems to be fair and reasonable and do it.

Good luck

[Steve-O]

With the meeting set for Saturday, I will not be able to attend due to obligations at the shop. Sat. is a busy day for us.

I think my stance has been clear. I am in support of an identification system. I do want it to be easy and effective. The less red tape the better. I also support the rotation of an instructor watch at East Beach and other spots if needed.

As this week has developed, I want to be clear that I have no preference for Randy teaching at the Skyway. If he feels he can conduct a safe lesson there, which he has hundreds of times, then that is HIS choice. I can respect that. I know Randy has assisted numberous new riders throughout the years at the Skyway regardless of who they were. His heart is always in the right place. It is however my choice not to teach there for my own reasons.

As far as new students returning to the Skyway to ride backside or frontside, that is an interesting debate that may just be that....a debate. I do feel that place can feel very crowded and not leave much room for a new rider to navigate there very well. That issue may not be resolved. All I can do is recommend that any new rider I teach not travel to either side of the Skyway until they are at an intermediate level of riding skill. Those that do so take their chances.

If a system develops that suggests new riders to stay clear of the Skyway area until there skills are up, I definately support that.

Looking forward to how the meeting goes. Wish I could be there.

I have heard Randy does not want any part of this, but as someone in the center of it all, I sincerely hope he will at least listen to all of our concerns.

[popeye]

So what was the result of the meeting?

A hangover?

[popeye]

Are the luggage tags for identifying level, or just for contact info?

What good is a sticker on a car?

The purpose this thread and meeting was to identify new riders, correct?

First post of this thread:
There are a number of issues in our area, but the A # 1 thing that needs to be addressed is identifying new riders.

Was any agreement reached on this point?

[TampaBay Noob]

Good outcome. I like the idea of the luggage tag on the harness very much. For the sign issue. I think approval for Ft. Desoto could be achieved and thus, no need to replace the sign constantly. As far as the sign problem at the skyway is concerned; What if the sign was portable...much like the flags Randy sticks in the ground everytime he is there to signify his location and promote Best. If the signs were cheap and could be distributed to a few people that ride the skyway most...maybe those people could just stake it in the ground everytime they ride and remove it before they leave??? This could alleviate some of the concerns regarding replacement on a regular basis.

[popeye]

Sounds like another meeting with only the instructors involved would be a good idea. BBQ+Beer is nice but I don't think it is the right atmosphere for a serious decision making.

Hopefully the local instructors from wsw/triton will come up with a working system we can all encourage/enforce.

[bryanleighty]

gotta start somewhere..

get together was nice.. had to skip out early due to other obligations .. but I saw the core group of experienced riders and instructors going over all the options. Everyone was serious about trying to find a way to get the ball rolling.

From the conversations that I was involved with heres what I took from the get together (besides a slight buzz)..

1. Signs will be distributed ASAP. Still some questions on exactly how to get these out there and exactly what they will say.. but its the bare bones basic start that needs to happen. Conversation of posting on sign details about some areas being restricted to intermediate and advanced riders only (Skyway) and others being more "rules to follow" types. Signs may have details on "Ask another rider that is wearing a XXXX color tag if you have any questions" to get item # 2 going.

2. Distribute stickers for cars and/or clips for harnesses to riders that are considered intermediate skill or above. These will need to be agreed upon and distributed by local instructors. Cost should be nothing (if possible) and they serve only to let other riders know that you are a capable rider. This is not a certification and is simply to help out skilled riders to quickly ID those on the beach and for newbie to ID those that might be able to help them.. This will need to be refined to a very simple and easy to implement method and will need as much local support as possible. The ONLY way this will work is if we all adopt this as "our system" and we stick to it. If we dont.. then back to square one and more ideas.

3. Do all we can as a group to spread the word of how great all of us Kitesurfers are.. Jayson's meeting w/ the politician, beach clean ups sponsored by kite groups.. all of these will get our name out and people will see we are organized and have numbers. Maybe get some more Kite-demo events out on the beaches to showcase the sport to people who might be interested and get some more mentions in local media.. Basically we need to keep our name in the positive as much as possible.

In the end tho.. its up to us to enforce this as much as possible. Get to know who is an instructor.. its probably a good idea to approach a new rider that might be doing something they shouldnt with a group and preferably with an instructor. Be cool and professional and most will respond to it positively..

[popeye]

Sounds great, glad it was a productive meeting after all. I was wondering because the thread sort of died, but maybe everyone was just busy catching up on the weekend.

The tag idea seems reasonable I guess. Whatever is decided upon I'll enforce/encourage however I can.

[Steve-O]

First want to thank Matt for offering his place for the meeting. All active instructors in the bay area were present minus kitemare....I believe those guys don't hang here in the summer. At least someone has some common sense.

Some common themes I am hearing on this thread.

1. There is a strong support for signs at crowded riding spots. Skyway East and West as well as East Beach.

2. An ID system would be helpful in identifying new, unfamiliar, and non-local riders.

3. Everyone needs to take a more active role in monitoring these areas in regards to new riders with instructors leading the charge.

So far, no one on the forum has been strongly opposed to the above 3 items. As a matter of fact, some excellent suggestions have been made by many concerned riders.

The meeting was casual and very informal, but discussion was present and some decisions were made. I don't think this will be our last get together but only our first of many in making some important decisions about the future of our sport in Tampa Bay. I am glad it was casual as it allowed for a relaxed flow of ideas. I do hope however, to have a few more of these sessions in a more formal atmosphere.

Item 1 was easy enough. All that is needed is to work out the details of what will be on the signs, get funding, get them built, get permission to install, and get them in place. East Beach will be the tough one. We are working on getting some signs that will last and hold up to the elements. Wood was discussed but Gabe may have a lead on signs that are used for the highways. Triton Kiteboarding may be able to fund these signs, and Matt has a meeting with the powers that be at Eckerd to get permission to install at East Beach. Scott...heard you may have an in with the park ranger.

Item 3 can only be helped by the installment of these signs. We all agreed we can pick out a new rider, and we all agreed that we aren't so quick to help or interfere as usually conflict may arise. However, the signs may empower anyone to get involved in an unsafe situation. Instructors are going to step up and offer advice and assistane with anyone that is struggling. Back us up, and we will back you guys up. There was also concern about dangerous riding practices by intermediate and advanced riders and the signs will address that as well.

Item 2 is the tough one. I feel this area had some for it, and some against. Some of us were concerned about being able to identify on the water, as some were concerned about identification on land. A tag on the harness or arm would be great on land, but not on water. A tag on the kite line would be great on the water, but not on land. More discussion on this I think will be needed. We felt that taking care of the signs and being more proactive on the beach may solve alot of problems. The ID system may not be necessary but I would like to leave it open for discussion as there was not an overall feeling against it.

My suggestion for now is to tackle the signs head on. Any help would be appreciated. A rough draft will be drawn up and shared with everyone before it is built. We may need to come together and put up some funds to get them built. I know Triton is going to do what they can. Count WSW in for some funding. Local donations couldn't hurt. Let's see what Matt can do first.

There is a great movie quote from one of my favorite movies Apollo 13 "Work the problem people!"

Have a great week
Steve-O

[popeye]

At EB if someone is being stupid and reckless and is truly a risk to himself and others in the park, I am sure the Rangers would be happy to ask him to leave if they were notified of the situation. This goes for anything not just kite boarding.

[bryanleighty]

I would hope that we could handle issues with any one rider ourselves.. would hope that Ranger and/or Police involvement would be a super rare occurance.

but.. if someone is being reckless regarless of what they are doing, I am all for calling in the people that get paid to get these people off the beach. Getting the police involved before some fight or whatever breaks out would look better than having them show up after a punch is thrown or a line is cut.

would think these situations would be rare.. if the community as a whole is behind the guidelines, then it will become the norm.

And just something to think about.. the Skyway is a great place to ride.. but there are other options as well. Lassing and even the downtown St. Petersburg Beach are great on ENE ... Maybe signs at these places as well if the others are accepted w/o issue.

[amber]

I have the catalog for the luggage tags. they can be personalized however we want them. (level 1 rider, etc) they secure with a rubber/plastic cord that seems very pliable and strong. If they are bought in bulk, they are inexpensive. If we were to order 250, depending on the type we were to choose, they range between $.79 and $1.85/tag. I think emergency contact info on them will also be an added benefit.

[bryanleighty]

cool deal amber..

can you post some pics? or a website? waterproof?

[amber]

here is a link to the promotions company that i have contact with. As you can see there are TONS of options. Need to narrow down by durability and water-proof. I've got stuff to do at work so i can't search thru them but the catalog i have in front of me has some that self-laminate whatever you stick underneath (business card size, etc)

Take a look and see what you think.

gotta go fight fraud ;)

http://www.rockstarpromos.com/

type in luggage tag where it says keyword and you'll get TONS of results

[bryanleighty]

even something like the "801-Tag" would be great.. simple.. cheap (25 cents) and I think it would snap under any load so that it would not be an added risk to wear it.

could put a hi-vis colored laminated card inside w/ info and thats would be that..

in the search.. add price ranges below to trim the results..

the "TAG-NAME2" style is pretty much exactly what I was thinking of as well..

good find..

[amber]

I like this one too...(IL40-1)
I'm not sure if anyone is still thinking about the ribbon thing, but i was thinking that: 1. We all have more than one kite and 2. we all share kites

Anyway...most of us don't share harnesses and we mostly wear the same one all the time. You aren't going to forget the luggage tag if you don't forget your harness. Emergency info provided (just in case)

The instructors could choose the cards that go inside. (this could be as simple and cheap) as printing stuff off someone's home computer on neon computer paper and then putting it into this tag.

[toby wilson]

I have not read the whole thread so someone may have come up with this idea already.

Have we reviewed the possibility of requiring or at least promoting the use of helmets at our launch sites for newer riders? At least until the rider can demonstrate that they are of intermediate level or above? I know we can't "enforce" this persay anywhere but in DeSoto with the Rangers backing, but we could post it on the signs which would encourage the use of a helmet.

I wore mine religiously for a very long time, then admittedly have slacked off quite a bit last season...because lets face it, not many like wearing a helmet. But maybe encouraging it until riders are at that intermediate level wouldn't be a bad idea... I think we have had several head lacerations in the last few years as a result of accidents as well including this most recent injury at the Skyway...just a thought, throwing it out there and know it will get plenty of backlash but in my opinion it isn't that big a deal to wear a helmet until you are an intermediate level rider...

Steve-O, this also may be a topic for conversation at the shop, letting the newer kiters know that a helmet would be expected of newbies coming in so they know what to expect? Just an idea, not trying to throw rules at WSW...

Okay, now you can all crucify my post!!! ;)

[popeye]

I agree with the helmet idea... beginners should always wear a helmet. It's a great way to identify them too.

Since I often wear a helmet people would stay far away from me. No complaints here.

I also have been slacking on the helmet lately... but I try to wear it when it's blowing 20+ or when a spot is crowded with new riders I don't know... like backside.

[ricki]

You guys are fortunate that the primary access threats seem to be from new riders, that simplifies things. Not all areas have that advantage.

Regarding helmet use, experienced guys (3 yrs+) have been far more likely to suffer severe injury, 65 % vs. 17 %, (including brain trauma, one of the more common types of severe injury) than newbies (<1 yr.). More at: http://fksa.org/showthread.php?t=4125

By all means suggest new guys wear good lids, makes sense. But at the same time please keep in mind who has been carrying the greater risk for sometime.

You are doing a good job getting organized and generating a productive flow of ideas. Well done.

[popeye]

Because they cost $30... and PASA cards expire if you don't pay your yearly till.

[inferno]

I will follow any rules we agree upon :)


Rule 37.56.89_C:
no landing kites by there bridles..... :)

[popeye]

Unfortunately new riders try to copy what the experienced riders are doing even if it means jumping 100 feet from shore.

You can witness this on any big day at East Beach as everyone competes for the "show space" where the best riders are doing the big stuff.

If the experienced riders can break the rules, so can the newbie.

Are we prepared to ask the best riders to jump further out?

[Skyway Scott]

One reason I brought up the example (of the sign) is that I would guess very shortly the "rules/suggestions/random thoughts" of the sign are going to be need to be agreed upon.
That's the very first step in getting a sign ready is it's printing, right?

I know we are trying to take baby steps, but the sign in itself presents the problem of needing a list that is complete, because I don't think we will be able to add one rule per week to it. Or maybe we could? Jayson? Wood... carving... IDK.

[C. Moore]

Since Randy is out at the Skyway 99% of the time, we could ask him to post the sign. It could be a vinyl sign that would be displayed on the side of his camper or between two pvc post.

Vinyl signs are low cost, easily made and can roll up nicely. They are made with UV protection so they won't fade after one season.

Randy might not go for this since it might look like he has liability if something goes wrong.

Just a thought.

[popeye]

He already has a best pro kiteboarding center lessons sign and best flags so I can't see it being much different...plus he's been placing orange cones around the launch area at backside. The sign sounds like a good idea.

[inferno]

Since Randy is out at the Skyway 99% of the time, we could ask him to post the sign. It could be a vinyl sign that would be displayed on the side of his camper or between two pvc post.

Vinyl signs are low cost, easily made and can roll up nicely. They are made with UV protection so they won't fade after one season.

Randy might not go for this since it might look like he has liability if something goes wrong.

Just a thought.

not i good idea, from a newbie or a visting kiters point of view, it would look like the rules were created by him only and not as enforced by everyone, definately need a stand alone sign, it it makes the rules seem more as a universal opinion of all the local riders, not just the guy whos vehicle it s on

[popeye]

Good point.

[bryanleighty]

again, I think these are all valid points.. cool that everyone is throwing ideas and scenarios into the pot. Its a complicated matter, no doubt, with tons of possible answers.. but the fact is that if we dont self regulate now, someone will do it for us.

take a look at this and tell me you'd like to have to abide by this crap:
http://www.miamikiteboarding.com/NewRulesforCrandon.htm

Its about developing safe habits from the very beginning and *hoping* those stick.

Sign should be as simple and thorough:

I think there are 3 major points..

1. launch area clear
2. landing and launching kites safely
3. riding safely

something like....(Please edit/add/delete as you feel necessary..)

Keep Launch Areas Clear -
--Park away from beach
--Keep Bar and Lines wrapped on all beached kites

Launch and Land Kites Safely -
--Assist incoming riders land their kites
--Give right-of-way to incoming riders
--Only allow experienced riders launch kites
--Launch and clear the beach as quickly as possible
--Keep a safe distance from the beach on incoming tacks

Ride Safely -
--Helmet and flotation devices recommended for all riders
--Always give right of way to other riders
--Do not perform stunts near the beach line

[popeye]

Some minor suggestions (in italics):



Kite at your own risk and only with proper training.

Keep Launch Areas Clear -
--Park away from beach
--Secure your kite and lines when not riding.

Launch and Land Kites Safely -
--Assist incoming riders land their kites
--Give right-of-way to launching or landing riders
--Only allow experienced riders launch kites
--Launch and clear the beach as quickly as possible
--Stay 200' from shore while riding.

Ride Safely -
--Helmet and flotation devices recommended for all riders
--Always obey right of way rules for kiting
--Do not perform or land tricks within 200' of shore.



200' is only about 2 kite line lengths ... the standard safety distance for kiting if I recall correctly.

[C. Moore]

Don't forget the obvious.

Kite leashes are required!

[popeye]

Oh yeah DUH!

Kite at your own risk and only with proper training.

Keep Launch Areas Clear -
--Park away from beach
--Secure your kite and lines when not riding.
--Always use a kite leash

Launch and Land Kites Safely -
--Stay clear of others on the beach.
--Assist incoming riders land their kites
--Give right-of-way to launching or landing riders
--Only allow experienced riders launch kites
--Launch and clear the beach as quickly as possible
--Stay 200' from shore while riding.

Ride Safely -
--Helmet and flotation devices recommended for all riders
--Always obey right of way rules for kiting
--Do not perform or land tricks within 200' of shore.

Seem reasonable? Seems to me we should just adopt the sign I posted as picture of earlier in the thread.

[amber]

familiarize yourself with the launch area and potential hazards BEFORE launching

[bryanleighty]

Tom.. didnt see that sign earlier .. or maybe this thread is too long and I've just forgotten..

but ... that about nails every topic I think it should. Maybe that should be our basis for a starting point and edit accordingly..

Customize for Skyway and Backside Skyway (could list some known hazzards and maybe a small map of the launch)

And.. the only reason I didnt put an exact # for how far to keep distance to the beach is that sometimes when the beach is clear, its probably OK for a rider to come up for a shoreline tack.. We have to assume that everyone will use their best judgment. Putting an actual number and it seems to me to become a "rule" as opposed to a safety "guideline".. maybe I am just over thinking it .. :)

This probably falls right into the counter-point to all of this and that is "who the hell has the right to tell me what I can and cant do?".. reasonable question to ask considering this is considered and hyped to be a sport that is all about the individual and limitless boundaries and freeriding and soul searching and all that other crap. :)

Easy to find valid arguments on both sides.

I just see that fine line between what is a positive way to having people follow the guidelines and what is a negative way in having to tell riders what to they have to do. My vote is for trying to do this in a positive way and if that does not work out.. we might need to get nasty.
:P

when is that next meeting????

[popeye]

Well, basically however it gets worded is fine with me as long as it ends up on a sign :)

I really don't think enforcing will be much of a problem. Just like asking someone to roll up their lines or secure their kite while their kite is on the beach... if asked nicely most people will do it out of respect for everyone else and more importantly, not to look like a fool when something goes wrong.

[Erick]

The after meeting at Triton House

[Kiteboarding Tampa Bay]

Bump;)