Okay so I've tried bows, hybrids, C's and...

[toby wilson]

I have to say that I rode all weekend 3 weekends ago on a bow, rode hybrids and a different bow prior to that during other sessions and last weekend went back to my C's. I can't justify selling off my C kites for Bows. To me, I'm gonna avoid the hype of the flat kites. C kites rule as far as I'm concerned and will be here to stay forever. To each his or her own and I want Amber to learn on flat kites for safety but if it aint broke, why try and fix it (in my quiver)???

[inferno]

your just saying that cause you cant get any one to buy your kites :lol:

[bryanleighty]

gotta lay off the phrase "hype of the flat kites" my friend...

for myself, buying a waroo took my kiting to an entirely new level of fun.. i was having a great time with my yargas.. i am having the time of my life w/ my waroos.

its a solo sport and personal preference is everything.

VERY glad you love your C's! (more bows for me!)

hahah.

[Skyway Scott]

I have a two kite quiver and it's gonna stay that way. No C kites are in it.

I have several C kites for sale. All are SS kites too.

[toby wilson]

No offense to anyone, I'm just sick of being bored on this forum and wanted to stir something up. I knew you three would pipe up on bows but also expected Roy, Josh, EBone, Big R, & Co. to pipe up too. Like I put in my post, to each his or her own. As for selling my kites, all I would have to do is drop them some. You can tell by what I am asking for them that I don't REALLY want to part with most of them. The 11's really aren't going to get much use by someone my size and are great kites that I could part with but the 17.5 is a GREAT kite for my size!!!

So whaddya got for sale Scott?

[Skyway Scott]

I just got sick of C kites last year, mainly because of the re rigging situation.
If it were always solid 20 here, I would be on an 11m Fuel every day.
But, it consistently goes from 11 to 17 or 15 to 25 and back.
The re rigging started getting to me. :evil:

Also, in the light winds, I haven't ridden a C that touches my hybrid.

[toby wilson]

I'm good all day on my 17.5M C kite. But most of the time ride my 20.5 for more power and when I try and move down a size regret it...

[Skyway Scott]

Bigger guys don't need many small kites. :P
Even in high wind, I bet you could ride that 16 Octane on a sinker board, you think?

[toby wilson]

Yep. I could probably cut out my 13 Fuel (and maybe the 17.5 Machine) and just have a quiver consisting of the 20.5 Machine, 16 Octane (flies like a 14 or 15) and 7 Fuel for hurricanes...

[CrazyJay]

Ahhhh.. and the C- vs- Bow debate continues.

Here's my take (as if anyone cares). The new bow kites are continuing to get better and better. Although they are somewhat safer the problem I see is guys riding 12 meter bows in 25 knots who could not hold that much kite normally. This is all good until something goes wrong. I think bows are giving a false sense of security to the new riders who have never had the crap scared out of them during a kitemare.

But, bows are GREAT for cruisng and for long runs where the wind can change dramatically.

Personally.. you will have to pry my Slingshot Fuels from my cold dead hands before I will give up that low end, kick you in the ass, kiteloop grunt!

PS.. Neil says the new 2007 Fuels have the range of the bows and the feel of the C's.

Happy Holidays Everyone!!!
jayson

[tomstock]

Yeah.. I felt that way too until I got one. One day on my waroo was more fun than 5 good days of riding my C kites. I was never questioning whether I should go in a pump up a different kite... or muscling the kite to the edge of the window. I rode my 16M from 8-10mph all the way up to 20mph.

The grunt was definitely there if I wanted it (in 15mph), and kitelooping power was a LOT more than my equivalent C kite. The first loop on my 16m waroo slammed me harder than I've been slammed on a kiteloop for a long time. This may have been because I underestimated the wind speed since I had so much depower range.

Nothing wrong with C's tho... if you like steady pull then they've got it.

Heck I like C kites so much I am practically giving them away help keep them from becoming endangered. I let someone adopt my 18M for $100, my 15M for $150, and I am offering up a 21M nemesis for $165. No paperwork required.

Seriously, I think in 2 years C kites will be as common as foils are today. They are still out there, but not very popular. Even Billy Parker is on a hybrid these days.

[toby wilson]

Well Trent, Jayson and I will keep foils and C's alive!!! :twisted:

Plus, I think you are VERY mistaken. The flat kite boom will pass and the classic C's will make a serious comeback in my opinion. They are just the buzz of the kiting world right now so most newbies won't even try a C kite...Roy STILL hasn't even TRIED a C kite...how can you prefer something if you haven't tried both options? :?

[CrazyJay]

What most likely will happen is that C kites will be reborn with new bridle systems that gives them amazing range so you get the best of both worlds.
I have designed a bar that makes this possible.... any investors out there with $30K??? :shock: serious :lol:

[Skyway Scott]

Didn't the Instinct and Type 8 already beat you to it? I know I think of the Instinct as a C with unreal range because of it's unique method of changing angle of attack.

Regardless of which is "better", it seems reasonable that non SLE kites are going to become rare. Seems like most riders (at least here) are learning on bow/hybrids and alot of experienced riders are switching to SLEs.

It is unlikely that newer riders will switch to a C after learning on an SLE, , unless it utilizes a really good depower system like Jay is mentioning.
I agree with Jayson, that is where it's going. (Uh oh, Jayson).

I am just glad I can ride in 11knots powered on something smaller than a circus tent, and also not have to re rig on those NW coldfronts. :P

[tomstock]

LOL. Well, anything is possible, but kites have continued to get stiffer and thinner... more and more aerodynamic and faster.... following this track kites can only get thinner and flatter (a close to an airplane wing as possible).

If you follow sailboat racing you will see thet the fastest cutting edge sail is actually a solid structure... a vertical airplane wing made of carbon fiber.

My guess is that kites will become stiffer and thinner, and become high pressure inflatables or solid ultra-light composite structures quickly assembled from 3 pieces (center and tips).

Sucks though because I hate change. I avoided flat kites until I just couldn't stand it any longer. Now I wish I'd switched a long time ago.

Seriously though it doesnt matter in the end. Billy or Jayson could ride a C kite from 2002 better and in more wind than I could ever ride my waroo.

[Skyway Scott]

Speculation can be fun. Having a stiff wing that can twist at the tips to spill off gusts would be cool. That's basically what happened to sails, they twist off gusts at the tips.
Kites are alot more complex than sails though. Much more 3 dimensional forces on them. Also, they have to relaunch, sails didn't (oops not past tense to everyone, just me)

I know I am glad I don't design kites because I bet they have to juggle performance with user friendliness and consistently (probably) have to give in to user friendliness (water relaunch while sitting there and pulling one line, ability to talk on beach ad-naseum w/o looking at kite, etc. ) over kick butt performance. Getting both in one kite must be an impossible challenge.

[shogun1204]

Yup I have never flown a C kite and one day I will. I have own both Flat and Hybrid kites now. Honestly I think the full Flat kites are ok, but the most fun I have ever had are on my hybrid kites. Funny thing is, I always hear all the old schools talk about how lucky us newbies got it these days with the bow kites. They alway talk about how easy they are to fly, and how much safter they are over the C kites. I hear the C kites have a lot of grunt, but not much depower. You have to take a lot of power out with eding the board. Thats fun and all, but I like it when a big gust hits all I have to do is sheet out and I don't get drug down wind. LOL Honestly I do want to try a C kite, and one day I will. For now I love my bows and hybrid kites. I think C kites will be around, but will become more known as a "Advance" riders kite. I think they will only make 14 meters and smaller in C kites eventually, and riders will have them in there quiver for 20+ knot days. Something that people that boost the big airs and do crazy tricks ride. LOL

I heard the same thing about the 07 Fuels, and looks like a great kite!

[tomstock]

I hope the characteristics of the new fuels are better than the colors because they are UGLY. The graphics look they were done with a speak and spell.

[E-Bone]

OK, bitchez, here's my Hot Bone Injection into this discussion:

Crazy Jay said: the problem I see is guys riding 12 meter bows in 25 knots who could not hold that much kite normally Word, Jay, everything is cool until they tangle another kite, tangle a bridle, come unhooked, or break a line. Newbies on a bow or an SLE in big wind always scare the shit out of me. I avoid them like the plague and stay upwind of dey ass.

Skyway Scott said: If it were always solid 20 here, I would be on an 11m Fuel every day. Hell, yeeaaahhhh, brah. Me, too.

Toby asked: how can you prefer something if you haven't tried both options? Response: I prefer women and I've never had sex with a guy. Maybe I am just old-fashioned that way.

Tom said: Even Billy Parker is on a hybrid these days. Billy Parker is a hybrid. One part berserker, one part wildcat, one part flying squirrel, and one part bull. One part bull? Yep, dat's where he gets those huge cojones, amigos.

[tomstock]

Billy needs a cape cause I am positive he can fly. Forget wings, he uses brute strength to push the earth away from him.

[C. Moore]

I like my 2 kite quiver.. Well actually 3 kite quiver. I have a 15m ION and a 12m Atom. My 8m Gk Sonic has yet to be used. Still crispy in its bag since July. :x I was counting on a big hurricane season.

[inferno]

I like my 2 kite quiver.. Well actually 3 kite quiver. I have a 15m ION and a 12m Atom. My 8m Gk Sonic has yet to be used. Still crispy in its bag since July. :x I was counting on a big hurricane season.

hopefully this year will be better
i just need to get my hands on a 5m waroo :shock:

[toby wilson]

Chris, didn't you get the chance to ride Amber's 8M GK Sonic that day at the Skyway while you were helping her a few months back? Maybe she had the ION up but I could have sworn she had the GK that day...

EBone, we're talking about kites here, not sex. I think you may have too much backside on the brain. And I fully agree with you and Jay, STAY UPWIND of newbies on flat kites on a windy day (or on ANY kites for that matter...).

As for the debate, I hope they never stop making larger C's or I am screwed!!! And I fully expect them to stay around. As for learning, yeah they are easier to learn on but in a single 1/2 hour of riding a bow, I had it invert on me twice then try to relaunch and fly backward. Those things are EVERY BIT as dangerous as C kites, they are just easier to learn on. When I throw my C bar, the kite FULLY depowers 99% of the time. I haven't always had that same experience with the bows but maybe I just had a bad couple of sessions, who knows? Yeah, you have to edge more power out of a C but that just makes you better in the long run in my opinion.

And Roy, are you claiming that I am an "Advanced" rider? I am a C rider and I am DEFINITELY not an advanced rider...thanks for the compliment though... :lol:

[C. Moore]

Yep.. I was riding her 8mGK Sonic, not mine. :?

[inferno]

As for learning, yeah they are easier to learn on but in a single 1/2 hour of riding a bow, I had it invert on me twice then try to relaunch and fly backward. Those things are EVERY BIT as dangerous as C kites, they are just easier to learn on. When I throw my C bar, the kite FULLY depowers 99% of the time. I haven't always had that same experience with the bows but maybe I just had a bad couple of sessions, who knows?

pilot error :lol:


ive never had an inversion, ive had the nose fold down a bit, but i was on a 9m in gusts to 40+ so its kinda expected

[bryanleighty]

ive had my waroo 12m invert twice.. once on the very first day on a failed self land where i gave way too much depower and didnt land it correctly.. it inverted and flew fine inside out and i landed it.

second was when it fell on a shore break, tumbled and inverted and relaunched (think Danny was there for this one..) it flew inverted and then POW.. it righted itself and that was that.

Flying a bow/hybrid takes getting used to .. i never use full depower unless i am in a bind and coming in to switch kites. i dont ride my kites to their far upper ranges (thats why i have a nubmer of waroos).. i know that once you push the kites limits it can invert easier.

Toby, i am sure that if you ride your TD more you will see the possibilities of inverting decline drastically in a session or two. It does take getting used to and should be done in moderate winds and in good conditions..
that day you were flying a 16 in its upper range ( Dan was flying the 16m waroo and was flying nearly full depower).. and it was on-shore winds... and just a bit hectic down by the beach area.

Again.. all a matter of preference.

I am 100% bow/hybrid lover but will keep an open mind for what might be around the corner.

I know that Dimitri has his new Eclipse kites that he is claiming is more C like than any of the other hybrids and claims incredible depower... remains to be seen of course.

[toby wilson]

I'll try it again of course. I just am really comfortable on my C kites and enjoy them a lot. The extra grunt really helps someone big like me. I'm just going to sit back and wait for once instead of buying everything up and see what happens in the next year or so. Amber also just bought her first 12M, an 06 (She had to have Purple or Pink, got a Pink one) Waroo!!!

I think her learning curve will really start to increase now. She just didn't have the right kite to learn on before. So look out, here comes Amber!!! :D :wink:

[JoshTaylor]

i've had my kites invert on me several times.. but little bit of a diffrent story.. trying handle passes means missing the handle sometimes.. which causes the kite to fully sheet out when it is in the power zone, sometimes causing it to invert.

i've NEVER had the kite invert on me when i was hooked in or didn't let go of the bar

[tomstock]

Some hard yanks but no power during the invert, right Josh?

Inverting seems scary but from what I've seen it's not all that bad as long as the kite is fully sheeted out when it happens (which is almost always).

If you inverted (due to something weird like a botched transition) and the bar was stopper balled in place and fully powered up, i imagine you would have your spine ripped from your torso when it flipped over and went through the power zone!

:shock:

My opinion is that flat kites are safer when you are in control, but when something bad happens (inversion, tangled bridgle) they are MUCH more dangerous... that's why people do not like to ride them at the upper end of the range...

I've inverted the 9m waroo in about 25mph. Scary but not as bad as it seemed. It was just completely unexpected.

[toby wilson]

Question to Waroo riders...

How much of a difference is there in the 2006 and 2007 bars? What are the differences and what is the cost of the upgrade kit? I think I heard it was $100...Thanks!

[inferno]

http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/manuals/waroo_manual_v1.pdf

http://www.bestkiteboarding.com/07Bar

[toby wilson]

Is it not a pulley bar like the TD bar???

[bryanleighty]

main difference is it uses a double line for the CL that has a slider stopper ...
big complaint in that there was no real way to setup a stopper on the cl without modding it.

i have not upgraded yet.. for a learner, its not neccesary.. save the 100$.. get the upgrade later.

if you are looking to milk out the most on a lightwind day on a waroo (or any bow kite) it is a great upgrade.

i will get one eventually.. just short on $$$ now.

[toby wilson]

The place I was working with only had 2 45mm bars and they were with kites so they wanted 285 for them. They were 07s though. I can't find a 45mm bar ANYWHERE!!! Any ideas or does anyone want to sell one? Would the ION bar work for now? Or even the 23" TD bar as long as she is careful?

[JoshTaylor]

Some hard yanks but no power during the invert, right Josh?

Inverting seems scary but from what I've seen it's not all that bad as long as the kite is fully sheeted out when it happens (which is almost always).

If you inverted (due to something weird like a botched transition) and the bar was stopper balled in place and fully powered up, i imagine you would have your spine ripped from your torso when it flipped over and went through the power zone!

:shock:

My opinion is that flat kites are safer when you are in control, but when something bad happens (inversion, tangled bridgle) they are MUCH more dangerous... that's why people do not like to ride them at the upper end of the range...

I've inverted the 9m waroo in about 25mph. Scary but not as bad as it seemed. It was just completely unexpected.I don't think i've ever even really got yanked much at all... it's just a pain in the ass getting it back in the air. just don't misuse the depowering, use only what you need. if your going a bit to fast don't huck the bar out, just let it out a little. get worked.. same thing.. let it out a little.. they are so quickly responsive with the depower that you don't have to throw the bar out to stop, just push out a little bit. if you ride the cabrinhas theres a little stopper thing they shows you the point of 100% depower. as long as you don't go past that to much you'll be fine.

[bryanleighty]

yes.. those should work fine..

i have a 45cm waroo and 55cm 04 bar w/ upgrade (06) kit..

i can fly all my waroos with either bar but i would really only say that i like to fly my 16m with my larger bar to get the most out of it.. but i can fly it with a 45cm fine..

any bar with extra depower capability will work great with a waroo.. it just needs that extra throw to get the depower..

you can ride the waroo on a regular bar too.. just wont have the full range..

[toby wilson]

So then the 23" TD bar would be best on a 12 Waroo?

[Skyway Scott]

I would get the new 55 cm Waroo bar, if you can and don't mind paying for it.
I have been using it on my 15m Hyper and the 12m Atom.
It works great on both.
The 55cm bar will work fine on the 12m Waroo.
23 inches is almost 59 cms (frame of reference)

[inferno]

So then the 23" TD bar would be best on a 12 Waroo?

no....
the TD bar has pulleys, the waroo bar does not
use the ion bar, its almost identical

[toby wilson]

Okay, does the Waroo relaunch like a C kite then?

[tomstock]

No, the waroo relaunches on it's own (or not at all)... Basically you just sit there and wait for it to fix itself. :D

(kidding, but only a little)

[toby wilson]

Well that is good news, Amber needs a kite that relaunches relatively effortlessly. :D

[bryanleighty]

to relaunch a bow (under most conditions) just grab an outside line and pull.. and keep pulling and keep pulling.. its odd and it sometimes takes a little while but the wingtip will eventually catch and the kite will swing around and zoooom you are off..

I HIGHLY recommend waist deep water relaunch drills w/ her.. walk her out from shore and have her purposely set the kite down and relaunch..

of course with higher winds, the kite basically relaunches.

it will also often relauch completely downwind and tho this looks scary and gives you a slight pull, it will not rip you out of the water once you learn to sheet out as the kite is coming up.

about a week ago i had my 16 land trailing edge down in deep water and i would not relaunch for at least 10 minutes.. the entire canopy was underwater with only the leading edge out.. i started slowing swiming away from the kite and the tension eventually helped the kite rise (sloooooowly) off the water and enough canvas became exposed..
suddenly it just filled and relaunched ..

you do not have to go towards the kite to lay it on its back.. not with a bow under *most* conditions..

[toby wilson]

Cool, just bought an 07 55mm Best bar from Ocean Extreme. Not a cheap piece of gear, but at least she will have the bar that belongs with that kite...

[JoshTaylor]

to relaunch a bow (under most conditions) just grab an outside line and pull.. and keep pulling and keep pulling.. its odd and it sometimes takes a little while but the wingtip will eventually catch and the kite will swing around and zoooom you are off..

I HIGHLY recommend waist deep water relaunch drills w/ her.. walk her out from shore and have her purposely set the kite down and relaunch..

of course with higher winds, the kite basically relaunches.

it will also often relauch completely downwind and tho this looks scary and gives you a slight pull, it will not rip you out of the water once you learn to sheet out as the kite is coming up.

about a week ago i had my 16 land trailing edge down in deep water and i would not relaunch for at least 10 minutes.. the entire canopy was underwater with only the leading edge out.. i started slowing swiming away from the kite and the tension eventually helped the kite rise (sloooooowly) off the water and enough canvas became exposed..
suddenly it just filled and relaunched ..

you do not have to go towards the kite to lay it on its back.. not with a bow under *most* conditions..you will never have to walk twords to kite tohave it lay on it's back.. that will just cause it to invert.

relaunching is very very simple.. every single time i've relaunched i just turned the bar and it pops up and relaunches.

[tomstock]

the 07 waroo bar is nice... i just ordered one myself but without lines.

[toby wilson]

For THAT price I sure hope it comes with some pretty nice lines... :D

[Jake]

I've been waiting for my 2007 55cm bar from Best for over 1 month now. I just called them and they told me 2 more weeks. :(
I'm tempted to fly my 16m Waroo on a standard 55cm bar. I know it will not depower as much. Does anyone have experience flying a 16m or 12m Waroo on a standard bar?

[WindRyder]

Emeraldcoastkiteboarding.com a shop here in Panama City has 55cm bars in stock.

[bryanleighty]

Jake.. you will be fine on standard bar.. just dont push the wind range as much as you would if you had full depower capability..

if you are comfortable flying a c kite w/ its limited depower you will be absolutely fine.
err on the side of caution.

might take some tuning tho to get it dialed.

be safe.

[tomstock]

For THAT price I sure hope it comes with some pretty nice lines... :D

Unfortunately it doesnt :( It comes with rubber bands. Thats why I didn't order mine with lines!

[tomstock]

I've been waiting for my 2007 55cm bar from Best for over 1 month now. I just called them and they told me 2 more weeks. :(
I'm tempted to fly my 16m Waroo on a standard 55cm bar. I know it will not depower as much. Does anyone have experience flying a 16m or 12m Waroo on a standard bar?

No problem at all just make sure you can connect your leash to a back line safety so you can fully depower it if you need to ditch the bar.

My old best 55cm bar didn't have a back line safety so I had to borrow a 45cm waroo bar until my 55cm comes in. I guess I could have put a 5th line on the waroo but I didn't feel like experimenting.

[Jake]

Thanks for the insight. The bar I have will do as it is an Airush re-ride bar which has the safety leash connected to a back line.