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H
10-05-2006, 09:59 AM
How's the start going to work? If we do a beach start with 75 riders spaced 12 yards apart (which is close) the first rider will have a half mile head start on the last.

Just wondering.

C. Moore
10-05-2006, 10:44 AM
We will hold a lottery for starting positions at the pre race party. I think we decided that since the race is so long it won't matter much to where people start. Honey Moon Island is such a big beach and it can handle 75 kiters with ease.

inferno
10-05-2006, 11:48 AM
agreed, whats a half a mile compared to a 25mile race...

toby wilson
10-05-2006, 12:06 PM
Chris, had you thought about a timed race with the winner being the one with the best overall time? We could volunteers initially set up at the start, with say 5 or 10 racers starting at a time with the groups starting about a minute or so apart? I think it would make it more fair for those in contention to win and it would also make the start of the race MUCH safer than having 75 kites in close proximity to each other sprinting off of the start all at the same time.

If two or more riders got their kites/lines tangled in the fray, it could spell disaster for SEVERAL racers even if they weren't initially involved in the accident... Just food for thought.

Russky
10-06-2006, 10:20 AM
Everybody starts at the same time - that's the beauty of windsports races. Whoever finishes first is the winner... simple and straightforward... no stop-watches... no claims that somebody got better wind, etc., etc.

Just be courteous at the start line - 10-second win on the start won't make much difference in 2-hour marathon.

toby wilson
10-06-2006, 10:31 AM
I was referring to SAFETY Dennis. You may not be in a rush to get out there, but I bet most will. 75 kites is a LOT to be launching all at once...but I am game to follow ANY rules that the administrators want to set.

C. Moore
10-06-2006, 06:23 PM
Everything will be discussed at the preparty. We are still working out some details.. For those who can't make it we will post on the forum and the website on how the start will take place..

windrad
10-13-2006, 06:53 PM
123

E-Bone
10-15-2006, 06:51 PM
It doesn't matter how the race starts, it will end same way, no matter what: with me on the podium with all the kitebabez worshipping The Bone while the rest of you chumpz break down my gear.

Don't sweat the details, punkz! The details are all bad for you, unless you enjoy eating my wake all race long.

Russky
10-16-2006, 10:28 AM
E-Bone, thanks for letting us know... thank God we already know who the winner is... I'm calm and tranquil now :).

Well, at least all the babes are yours anyways...

Hey, was that you I saw on yesterday's downwinder?
http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/files/kite-fake01_853.jpg

Bro, take it easy on them battleships... they got good spray too...

E-Bone
10-16-2006, 12:53 PM
I did a wall ride on that battleship. Mad skillz!

kent
10-24-2006, 02:44 PM
Sounds like this will be a great event. Congratulations for creating such excitement in this relatively new format. There are some things that organizers should consider if you wish the event to continue to grow into something even greater.

I would recommend forming a small committee of experienced race organizers to determine all specifics with respect to the competition. It is never a good idea to vote for rules. You do have a good resource in Tampa with Steve Levine of Water Sports West. He could certainly provide you with recommendations for a starting procedure.

While I understand that this is a fun event, rules will help to avoid any confusion and insure that everyone is having a good time. I personally feel that any mass beach start in this race is going to be a poor decision. Given the likely wind directions for the start, any beach starting procedure including a rabbit start is going to be problematic. Combine the complications of beach tangles with the desparagy of starting position spread over quite a long distance, this is a really bad idea. The only reason that it worked last year was simply that the wind was exactly off shore from the starting point. In effect this would be fine (very similar to recommendation below), but this will not be the case along the beach.

I tend to disagree that the race will be won by any large margin. The reason for any margin last year was due to the wind dying 3 miles from the finish. Before the change in velocity, the top 3 places were with in 20 seconds from each other and the finish would have remained very close. This is not a long race and will be quick to finish.

I would recommend the following:

Down wind timed sequence water start between a pole on the beach and a large buoy on the water. The line between the pole on the beach and the buoy needs to be as close to perpendicular to the wind as possible. If anything, place the flag on the beach slightly up wind, making the buoy on the water slightly favored for starting. This will keep people further from the beach and allow for some great photos. The nice part about a water sequence start is that more competent riders can be competitive on the line and those just looking to cruise will be able to hang back a bit and not jeopardize other starters.

Place a tall poll with a colored flag on the beach
Set a large buoy on the water, set with good sized anchor
Set the line approximately 150 - 200 yards in length

Start Sequence:
At:
6 min. 30 sec.: prep signal (several loud blasts from horn)
6 min.: start of sequence (1 loud blast and display of white flag)
4 min.: white flag down (no sound)
3 min.: red flag up (1 blast from horn)
2 min.: red flag removed (no sound)
1 min.: yellow flag up (1 blast)
30 sec.: yellow flag down (no sound)
START. Green flag up (1 sound)

This differs slightly from racing rules to insure a bit more time for novice kiter's to organize them selves.

Due to the number of racers, I would say to DSQ all early starters. This will insure a good start and no individual recalls. You will however need a provision to call back all racers if too many are over early to identify. A restart would then need to be run.

This may sound difficult, but I assure you that it is not. 1 mark, 1 sequence, 1 start. Great photos and less chance of injury, tangles, etc. It would really be best to do the same for the finish, but with the line only being 20 yards long. See you at the Party!

BigR
10-24-2006, 03:17 PM
Kent , Those are all excellent ideas,

How about a novice class and an advanced class as well to give two separate starts , that would give more distance as well for less chance of intanglements

kent
10-24-2006, 03:31 PM
i'd run them all together as this is part of the draw. novices going up against D. Leroy and others, this is great. novices will not be anywhere near the start.

Gebi
10-25-2006, 10:09 AM
On the start; I agree with Kent, it should be done on the water and as he described.

The start for the top riders will be one of the main deciding factors in who will ultimately prevail. Ultimately this race is a challenge of navigation, rider skills, tuning and endurance.

Getting tangled up on the beach in the middle of a botched "beach rabbit start" does a disservice to all the riders. (A rabbit start would work fine if we had less competitiors)

A good "on the water downwind start" gives everyone equal opportunity to depart the beach safely and get positioned on the water to hit the starting line moving and unobstructed by other riders; as all riders will have the ability to position themselves relative to traffic and for their own optimum VMG downwind angle.

We just need to make sure the race management/ race committee endeavor to police the line with over early kites being disqualified.

A hard one minute rule would make policing the starting line easier; meaning if any one is over the line in the last minute of the aformentioned starting sequence, they are disqualified. (This can also be controlled with the help of a video camera on the beach documenting the over early riders)

If the start is so bad (too many unidentified racers over early) that it needs to be started over as a "GENERAL RECALL"; a fast committee boat positioned on the outside bouy could hail back the riders by driving down wind of them and flying a general recall flag signalling them to return back to the starting line.

With a fleet of this size and wide range of rider skills, an on the water starting line is the only and safest option that offers equal opportunity for the whole fleet.

Gebi

kent
10-25-2006, 10:24 AM
you know it's bad when gebi is worried about tangles... this guy hooked me in the middle of the ocean with only 2 of us riding with in miles of eachother on the way to Bimini!

I like the idea of a hard 1 min. rule this would keep it clean. The beach start will result in at least 4-5 riders being taken out of the race. This is in no way similar to last year's start due to the side or side on wind conditions.

Gebi, better watch out this time, you're not on my team! I hope that raw food diet give you the power. i just had a big fat fried pork sandwich with a side of fried rice and some pecan pie. i finished off the mean with a dry martini and 6 buds. feel the power!

ricki
10-26-2006, 08:52 AM
Kent and Gebi both come from an Olympics windsurfing racing background and a ton of other races over time both as organizers and competitors. They bring up some good ideas to consider. My hat is off to the race organizers, it is a great concept and a large undertaking with so many riders. Glad I am only looking to do the run. It should be an interesting race and series!

kent
10-31-2006, 01:55 PM
I still think that you need to consider revising the start procedure at least to some extent. In looking at the Google earth images, you may have the option of starting racers around the bend, shortening the length of the line and allowing for more of a down wind start.

As it is now, there will be more than a quarter of a mile advantage from #1 to #100. Gebi and I finished the course in just under 55 minutes last week and ended 45 seconds apart.

One other item that is not being considered is that of 100 riders, only about 15 will really know how to ride effectively off the wind. The down wind tack angle will have at least 20 degrees difference between the intermediate and advanced riders. Those riders starting above 15 or so will all be heading up wind (due to less experienced riders down wind) and then turn the corner. My personal starting position is quite good at 40 something, but this has the potential to go badly.

As far as the rabbit start is concerned, it is very difficult to do in the given circumstances. Top riders in the upper numbers will be heading off the wind and make it difficult for others to get off the beach. Additionally, if you are planning to have riders in the straps at the waters edge, where is your rabbit going to run? In the water? The line will likely be about 1/4 mile. This will make it necessary for you to have a "gas powered rabbit; otherwise, you will be talking 2 plus minutes in differential at the start. If you're stuck on this type of start, a Jet Ski rabbit might be a good option.

What ever you do, plan it carefully, because you have no provision for a recall which 25% of the time is required. Once you say go, you won’t get them back even if you see that it goes very wrong (i.e. racers leaving 2-3 minutes behind others, too long of start line discrepancy, multiple tie-ups, etc.).

Over the last 20 years of racing in wind sports, I have put in well in excess of 3000 - 4000 starts (both on the water and from the beach). I'm sure that all will go very well and the event will be outstanding, but it never hurts to look at historically successful starting proceedures as a template. Good luck and I'm looking forward to the 48 hr. warning.

Kind regards,

Kent

tomstock
10-31-2006, 02:04 PM
100 riders, all riding in 25mph winds, tacking back and forth in waves and chop trying to avoid crossing lines... obiously this is going to take a LOT of space. How are they going to hear or see any sort of signal? Some of these riders have rarely ever ridden in the gulf much less waves and 25-35mph winds.

BigR, is right, novice and experienced would have been a good idea, with two seperate sets of prizes.

I'm not racing this year but I'll probably shoot some video and do some tag along riding... recover lost boards, etc. Good luck guys, have fun!

The Kite House
10-31-2006, 02:33 PM
I really feel alot of people are taking this serious, and if someone who is fast has a 1/4 mile lead on me, thats alot to make up in hard condtions, let alone besides going dwon win, dodging all the people that are tacking. I will be curious to see how this works, will it work different in Jupitor?

Thanks for speaking up kent, you guys from the race are doing a great job, and i apreciate it, i dont think a little advise from some people who have the experence hurts. The will be a big part of the future of this sport, we are setting trends here in Florida, the tampa race, the jupitor race, and a keys race in feb, would be good to follow one pattern. i am sure it will be a blast, thanx for all the help.

aloha Paul Menta

C. Moore
10-31-2006, 05:31 PM
I just got on guys. A lot of good input from all of you. We will probably get together soon and discuss the ideas that have been brought up. Give us a few days to respond.

I will be one of the last to leave the beach as a safety precaution, to make sure riders make it at least to Clearwater. From then on they are on their own.

Jayson and Damien each paid me $50.00 to take out as many people as possible. If I took out Kent first they would each give me $100.00. :P

-Chris

toby wilson
10-31-2006, 05:45 PM
Thats funny, those guys paid me to take Kent out too!!!

Gebi
10-31-2006, 05:58 PM
The current starting scenario will make a huge impact on the finish positions. As it stands now the guys upwards of 50th in the starting order are going to be giving up some serios time to the ones starting downwind of them; and there is major concern for tangles even before we get off the beach with the system currently being used.

And we have no system for redress if someone takes out a rider as we have nor right of way rules so far for this sport. Its going to be a free for all.

Hopefully we can develope a better system to organize the start so it will be more fair and safe for every one.

Maybe the first thing to do is to find riders who are just racing for fun and focusing on just finishing the race. Maybe a separate start for them would work.

I agree with Paul Menta's comments, the racers are racing for money, for prestige and some just to finish. We need to thinhk this through a little bit better as we are setting a presedent.

I was the starting rabbit at the 2006 RSX Olympic Windsurfing World Championships in Italy about a month ago and started over 120 racers of world class ability, plus many of regional and national ability and we had some serious crashes; and these windsurfers have done thousands of starts each.

Now imagine kiters who do not have much, if any racing experience, let alone starting experience and we could have a real mess on our hands.

The on the water start with a proper starting line, and two fleets sounds the safest to me.

Or have riders go by a mark on the beach and take their times at the start and finish.

just my 2 cents.

Gebi

ricki
10-31-2006, 06:22 PM
The following images may help in discussions:

http://www.fksa.org/albums/album210/Honeymoon3.sized.jpg

http://www.fksa.org/albums/album210/Honeymoon2.sized.jpg

http://www.fksa.org/albums/album210/Honeymoon1.sized.jpg

http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/files/dsc00485_212.jpg
Here is the spacing used for the crossing to Bimini. It appears to average about 40 ft.. For 50 guys launching at a time, this would equate to about 2000 lineal ft., for 25, roughly 800 ft..

http://www2.worldpub.net/images/KB/125-tampa_bay_kitemasters.jpg
Here is the spacing used in last years Bay race. There must be a higher res. version of this image out there. Still, the spacing between the riders seems to be around 40 ft. and in some cases quite a bit more.

C. Moore
10-31-2006, 06:26 PM
We have discussed letting the serious riders start first and then have the adventure riders hold off for a minute and then start at their own disgression. This should help out a lot considering we only have at most 25 serious riders.

CrazyJay
10-31-2006, 06:51 PM
Thanks for everyones' input on the starting line. I know many of you were at the preparty and heard the starting line scenario but I'll
re-address some points here.

- Yes, this is going to be a bump and grind start but it won't be as bad as you are imagining.
- NO, there is no system of redress if you tangle kites with someone else. THERE ISN'T ONE IN BORDERCROSS AND THAT'S A 4-5 PERSON HEAT THAT TAKES ONLY 5 MINUTES.
- There are going to be approximately 25-30 riders in the first group. Once the leisure riders step back then these 25 will all condense towards the #1 (furthest south) starting position. If each rider gets 20 feet then this is about 500' of layout.

THIS MAY SOUND LIKE A DISADVANTAGE BUT THOSE WHO KNOW THIS RUN KNOW THAT IT ACTUALLY ISN'T. THE OUTSIDE TRACK IS ACTUALLY BETTER FOR THE BEGINNING. THE NORTHERN RIDERS WILL HAVE THE ADVANTAGE TO THE OUTSIDE REEF.

Most important is that everyone just be safe and careful. Remember guys and gals, this is for fun so enjoy it!

tomstock
10-31-2006, 07:05 PM
And you have 25 miles to catch those guys... just dont loose your board and you will gain on them when they do...

BigR
10-31-2006, 07:05 PM
- There are going to be approximately 25-30 riders in the first group. Once the leisure riders step back then these 25 will all condense towards the #1 (furthest south) starting position.

So there are two classes ? Professional and fun class?

Just want to make it clear because this is the first time that two classes have been officially set with different start times ( would've been great to have finalized that aspect at the pre race party )

toby wilson
10-31-2006, 08:24 PM
Raul, all of this was discussed at the pre-race party. This is why Jayson asked us to raise our hands if we were in this race to win, then a show of hands if we were in this race for fun or just to accomplish a goal. He then mentioned that some of us should hang back that were in it for fun or just to accomplish a goal.

We don't even need 2 starting times because you can stand on the beach for 15 seconds, launch and then go to give the serious contenders a chance to get ahead of us, then subtract 25-30 seconds off of your finish time if you really want an accurate time...it's all good, if you aren't taking it seriously enough to think you are a contender, a couple of seconds off your time won't really matter all that much. :D

BigR
11-01-2006, 06:03 AM
not everyone knows that there are two race classes since not everyone that signed up for the race was in attendance and does not know these changes to the two classes

bryanleighty
11-01-2006, 07:39 AM
Jay can you type out the Start and Finish specs you went over at the pre-race party?

Might help clear some confusion for those that were unable to attend.

CrazyJay
11-01-2006, 09:31 AM
Big R, there is not two race classes. Everyone is in the same except I am asking some riders to wait 15 seconds before taking off.
There will be prizes for men and women and also misc prizes that will be drawn randomly.
I will cover the start and finish in an email that will be coming out soon.
thanks
jay

Woodson
11-01-2006, 09:45 AM
Although I drew the 9th spot, my understanding from discussion at the pre party was to launch, and slowly move out of the way as I am not competing but just completing.

If a better scenario is to stand in position, acknowledge my 9th spot launch, and then forfiet launch until later position, that is fine by me.

I completely understand the seriousness of those competing and my main goal is to have another great time hanging with you guys and enjoy the down winder and after party.

I'm confident by race time, you guys will have this figured out. My concern is safety first and then just enjoying the ride...

So, I am completely happy to give up/ or hold my number 9 spot... Just don't want to cause a administrative nightmare...

Again, this is 100% for fun and not a competition... although Josh T. is giving me an 1.5 hour handicap for a small wager... :P maybe 1:45... :oops:

Thoughts?

toby wilson
11-01-2006, 10:25 AM
For those in attendance at the pre-party, Jay discussed the procedure in detail. This forum and the race website are a place for the people who did not attend the pre-party to learn about the starting procedure but I think that the race committee and Jay in particular have decided on a starting line procedure and it is definitely a reasonable one IMO...

Competitors start first, leisure riders launch and start 15 seconds later. Pretty plain and simple. :D

Woodson
11-01-2006, 10:36 AM
Sounds good. Just putting it out there. Thanks Toby.

toby wilson
11-01-2006, 11:19 AM
No prob bro!!!