125 foot towups!!!!!!!!

[CrazyJay]

Billy talked me into tying two ski ropes together and towing up at egmont behind his jetski. Glad he did!!!!!! unbelieveably awesome views from that high!!
we measured the rope in my front yard when we got back. 125 feet. next week we add one more to get to 200 feet.
PS.... don't try this unless...... just don't

[JoshTaylor]

you guys are insane

hey jay, could you guys let me do a tow up with a short rope? never done it, and want to!

[tomstock]

Tell me when and where and I'll try to come by and catch it on video..

[CrazyJay]

Thanks Tom. I'll call ya next time we go.
Chris Moore has volunteered his helmet POV cam. It would be cool to have the helmet cam, someone on a boat videotaping, and someone taping from shore. Then we could cut all three points of view into a cool video.

[bryanleighty]

Jay.. let me know as well please.. would like to video it as well..

maybe someone from the back of the jetski???

[E-Bone]

You guyz have ballz of steel...I don't think I even have to gutz to watch something like that.

[BigR]

I don't suppose any kind of injury or anything could happen from falling 200 feet out of the sky???

LOL! :o :shock:

Does happy velocity begin at 50 or 200 feet or in 1 or 10 feet of water? LOL!!!


:lol: :o :D :shock:

[CrazyJay]

anyone got a water housing for a vid camera? they can sit on the back of the ski... as long as its ok with Bill.

Hey Big R... easy on the word! Mrs. CaptAssBlstr may be listening :shock:
:x :cry:

[tomstock]

I guess Neil could tell ya' all about it... well, what he can remember of it anyway...

[BigR]

okaydokay CJ!

I think I remember NH trying the same tricks back in the 90's

Let me know when cause I wanna videotape this for sure!

[Skyway Scott]

No injury is possible from a 200 foot free-fall into water. No worries Raul.

Many people have attempted to kill themselves from jumping off of the Skyway, but most simply fail and our left drenched, with nothing but their egoes bruised. (The skyway at its center is about 180 feet up)

http://www.jumperpool.com/home.htm
(if you actually read the stats, few survivors jumped from the center span)

No worries, Raul.

[C. Moore]

I got a back pack for the cam thanks to technochick. Jay, just let me know when and we will strap it on.

-Chris

[toby wilson]

Jay, if the water is deep enough, I will offer up my boat to film from...

[Stevil Kenevil]

I got some KILLER still shots this weekend riding alongside/under Mr. P from another ski. I think shooting video like that will be swweeeeet!

[CrazyJay]

Although towing up is the most exciting thing i've ever done with a kite, i think i'm gonna hold off on 200 feet until i build a new bar with alot of safety built in.
We are gonna make one with redundant front lines, back lines, chicken loop, harness line, pigtails, etc, etc.
Falling from 200' is not on my "to do" list.

btw... anyone got a parachute??? :wink:

[ricki]

Best advice for parasailing, use parasailing gear it is less likely to fail and break. Kite gear is too unreliable and prone to breakage under the major forces during towing. Towing creates peak loads in all the gear akin to that generated in the seconds of launching a jump. During towing these stresses last for the entire time of the tow.

Stalling the kite is fairly easy too. Say you suddenly come off tow, let go, have control input errors for a second, down you go. Pulling to near the zenith puts you particularly at risk, the forces and tendency to stall are maximized. If you let go or are let go in this position, it is probable that the kite will go into a stall that you may not recover from. This can happen with paragliders on tow too and paragliders are built to handle these sort of stresses. Still, if paragliders stall badly enough, down they go. Paragliders and hang gliders that tow up use winches with variable tension control, weak links, tow bridles, radio comm. with pilot, driver and winch operator. It is a different approach and built upon years of hard experience with alternate approaches. Ballistic parachutes are of no help in this as they need at least about 450 ft. of altitude to have time to deploy.

What can break? Lines, pigtails, harnesses, spreader bars, leader lines, bridles, chickenloops, kites, etc. have all failed many times under much lighter loads while kitesurfing. I have had at least 25 failures of this stuff in over seven years.

More about this at:
http://fksa.org/viewtopic.php?t=2087

It's all about choices. Good luck

[tomstock]

Towed with 125 feet of rope, 45 degree angle:

sin(45) * 125 = 88 feet

Towed with 250 feet of rope, 45 degree angle:

sin(45) * 250 = 176 feet.

The skyway is 180 feet.

Would you hang from it by your chicken loop?

Regardless we will see your big brass balls from the ground...

[toby wilson]

If I don't find a job soon, I'm gonna lose it and jump from the skyway...maybe a 200 ft. tow-up and pulling the QR would be more effective??? :lol:

[CrazyJay]

good math Tom! l should have stayed awake in calculus :D

But.... we are probably at 95 degrees straight above the ski. Billy actually was lifting the back of the ski one time.
When you max out at the top you are looking straight down at the ski and can even get in front of it. You have to be careful and go slow though or else you can overload the gear. We are holding onto a ski bar and not locked in. My bar and lines are rated for 600 pounds.(the next one will be rated for at least 1000lb) Unless I can hold 600 pounds with one hand i will hopefully let go of the ski b4 the lines break.

[C. Moore]

Jay,
I am sure with all of your dates with Pamela Handerson you can hold 600 pounds in one hand. :P

[CrazyJay]

:shock: :D :roll: :roll: :roll: ouch!

[ricki]

Hey Jay,

All the best in your experiment. I am not going to talk you out of it, I just want to pass some facts your way. The choice is yours. I have added some more facts to my original post at the top of this page.

Take care,

[CrazyJay]

Thanks Rick. I appreciate the info.

I believe that "towing up" can, and will, become a standard kiting procedure in the near future. And yes, I completely agree that it is extremely dangerous, especially once you get over the 75 foot range. Once you are over 100 any mistakes pretty much mean death.

But here's the thing.....

I don't think it has to be dangerous. The more and more Billy and I have done it the easier and safer it seems. We usually only go to about 40-50 feet. (the 125 footer was just to test the limits and see if it was possible).

Every time we go out we figure out something that works better and safer. For example, we used to go really fast and tow up quick then let go and float down. Problem is it was overstressing the gear which can cause breakage. Now we go very slow and use a very large kite (18-20 m)
This solved several problems.
1.) We only need to go about 15-20 mph on the ski. The flier controls the height by sheeting the bar in and out
2.) The tension on the ski rope is very light. (we can actually pass the bar behind our backs and go the other way)
3.) A large kite provides more canopy and a slower descent.
4.) You DON'T have to let go of the ski rope. I rode all the way up to 125 then slowly came down to the water all the time holding the tow rope. I've seen bill ride at about 35-40 feet high for minutes at a time.
5.) NEVER tow up in more than 12-14 knots because you accelerate laterally to fast on your trip down. It takes about 12-20 seconds to float down from 125 ft. If the wind picks up to 25 then you will be doing at least 25 when you hit the water.
6.) Flat water is helpful
7.) Complete communication and trust between driver and flyer is critical.

Here's my point. I am 100% POSITIVE that towing up will be standard in 5 years. Unfortunately someone has to be the test pilots and work to advance the gear so that it becomes safe. Someone has to learn the points i listed above. And there is a lot more to learn.
7 years ago my first kite was a 7 meter foil and was anything but safe. It had no sheeting, no brakes, and pulled like a truck. Now any fool can learn to kite safely in a week.

I believe that we can make towing up that safe also. It's just gonna take some time and improvements to the gear.

It is way too addictive not to catch on. Whether you are 25ft or 125ft the feeling is as close to flying as you'll get without a plane. It makes regular riding seem kinda boring. Plus it's perfect for the summer 10-12 knot days.

[ricki]

Hey Jay,

It looks like you have put some time and thought into this. It is funny that you have concluded that this might become accepted in five years. I thought the same thing might happen four years ago after Neil's accident. I even put out feelers to see if there was interest in developing a safer approach. I never received any.

I learned many years ago to always expect a kitesurfing gear failure at anytime. Because, it can and has happened at anytime. I think I have had about a dozen kite line breakages alone. If a kite line breaks and it likely will in time and you are 100 ft. up + it may well be lethal. Cervical fracture and other internal injury is possible from a far lower height.

I started tow up hang gliding almost 14 years ago from boats and trucks, there are a lot of parallels to what you are considering. There are also many critical differences. Towing up is truly flying and not to be confused with kitesurfing. Kite gear is simply too fragile and prone to breakage. To develop a sustainable form of tow-up apparatus it needs to be a lot more robust and durable. The tow system needs to emulate that in use in paragliding and hang gliding. Lots of guys have already been mauled and killed in those sports establishing the need. Tow up pilots need training as pilots. What if the come off tow and glide into power lines, buildings, traffic on roadways, etc.. These things can and will happen, unless fairly wide glide slope buffers are maintained over water.

I have no idea how to create functional emergency parachute systems for this activity as it doesn't seem like you will have sufficient altitude to allow conventional systems to work. So, if you have a canopy failure, irrecoverable stall, etc., down you will go. This alone may be enough to keep any sensible manufacturers out of this arena. There is no fail safe, at least not yet.

There is a great deal to tow-up flying. If you are serious about this, why not go at by starting with towup hang gliding or paragliding first. You will learn a great deal and in a much safer, although still dangerous setting. You can do tandem towups from a tricked out hang glider tow boat with miamikiteboarding.com for about $100. It is the best way to blow a C not e that I know of.

[Optionryder420]

This thread is pointless without pictures.

[ricki]

Kitesik at http://kiteflix.com/

[Skyway Scott]

Have a blast guys.

[E-Bone]

Optionryder420 said:

This thread is pointless without pictures.

How are we going to take any photos? Everytime they pull this stunt, their cojones are so big that it causes a total eclipse of the sun.

[tomstock]

Wow so you get directly over the jetski? Gotta see this. Let us know when.

[CrazyJay]

Thanks Rick. I'm not so sure about the hanggliding or parasailing. I'm gonna stick to what i know which is kiteboarding.
My goal is to do towups as regularly as possible and stick to 20-30 feet. This will allow me to get alot of hours in the air towing up at a relatively safe height while improving the safety of the gear.
Plus, at 20 feet you can go very slow and do tricks. I think this is where the future of towing up is at. If there is no wind at a contest then break out the jetski and 30 foot towrope. Once riders get good enough to do this consistently and throw tricks at the same time then towup kiteboarding will explode. The reason it is not all over the networks like BMX, Motocross, and Skateboarding is because we are WIND DEPENDENT. No wind = no contest. Advertisers and tv networks don't like to put $ into an event if there is a chance it won't happen. Surfing had the same problem for a long time.

[CrazyJay]

btw Rick, I remember that u used to have helmets with communications inside. How clear were those? Could you hear through the wind? Where do i get a setup like that?
Thanks
jay

[ricki]

I still have one for hang gliding, it works well. However it isn't potted for water service. I have yet to use one of these but what most kitesurfing instructors are using is a VHF walkie-talkie in a bag housing. I don't know if they use it in voice activated mode or if it is just one way for instructions for the student. I would think background noise would be a problem. However when you are on tow background noise generally falls away once you are a distance from the water.

I would think over that suggestion to try towup hang gliding some more. Your first tandem flight is to about 1400 ft., you get to fly on your first flight and the view over Biscayne Bay, the ocean, sharks and dolphins in the shallows and even the Miami skyline is pretty impressive. It only lasts about 15 to 20 minutes but it is memorable. http://www.miamihanggliding.com/ . You will learn about weaklinks, tow systems and bridles, maintaining tow line tension, avoiding overflying if you pay attention during your tandem session. It would take a lot longer to learn this stuff in a course, if they even offer one these days in boat tow technique. Easy info, no pain and not much risk involved.

If you really want to get big air, hang gliding and paragliding are the way to go. On the land in hang gliding we tow to 2500 to 5000 ft. plus. Hundreds of guys have already been killed and maimed in the development of functional, durable flight and safety systems over the decades. Today, things work well. In 2002 there were NO hang gliding or paragliding fatalities in the USA, in 1974, the early days of hang gliding, 40 died in the USA alone. Being in the early part of the learning curve in a new inertia sport can suck with the injuries and fatalities.

[CrazyJay]

How can i turn down a 2400 ft towup. do you know who runs that service in Miami? Maybe we can set something up for next time i am down there.

I believe the future of kitetowing will be in the 20-30 foot range, not 125. It's a blast to go up 25ft and stay there..... indefinitely. It also is the right height for learning new tricks. I have already thought of several that will work well behind a ski.

Hopefully this Sunday at the skyway (east 10 knots) wil be the day for going out again

[Kev]

Jay - keep us all posted on Sundays deal. if its only blowing 10 none of us will have anything better to do but come and watch and film too.

[CrazyJay]

its blowin about 10 from the west. i'm gonna see if i can get billy and his ski to go to the backside soon. anyone videographers interested?

[tomstock]

Looked but didn't see you out there...

[CrazyJay]

wind never really came in today. need about 10-12 to keep the kite from stalling.
Gonna try again tomorrow and this weekend. I will post here b4 we head out.

[ricki]

Some more about hang gliding. You know how fighter pilots say nighttime carrier landings deliver some of the most uneasy and stoked moments in a flyers life? Truck tow hang gliding can be like that. You are blasting down a road at 40 mph + and they you yell "clear" and are catapulted backward off the bed of the truck. The truck is triggering thermals as it blasts down the road which in turn kick the hell out of you trying to stay in line with the truck and wings up. It is an intense experience particularly on hotter days. You tow up to about 1/2 mile high and then release the tow line to the recovery parachute and you are on your own.

You glide along looking for lift. I've never soared with eagles but I have thermalled with quite a few buzzards. You may see a stack of buzzards coring a thermal so you fly over to intercept the invisible column of rising air. Suddenly you hear a rushing of air, like when you stick your head out the window on I-95. Your variometer, if you have one of these vertical velocity meters, goes nuts beeping like a lunatic. You hear the rushing of the wind, that is you rushing UP. Thermals are finite and easy to fly out of. When you come into one, one wing only can get caught blasting skyward throwing your off balance for a while until you can arch into to core the thermal. There is a lot of tradecraft, knowledge, experience and a bit of luck that goes into thermalling and cross country hang gliding. I remember hearing a story about a guy who was caught in some cloud suck* in a deteriorating storm cloud and ended up at about 11, 000 ft. AGL, a launch record. Hang gliders are built tough and in theory can sustain more G forces than some fixed wing aircraft. We carry reserve parachutes, sometimes several, comm. gear,fared kevlar helmets, etc.. It can be a rush and enlightening thing to experience.


* Cloud suck is when a cloud, say a cumulonimbus pulls you into it through very powerful convective forces and can fly you upward at 60 to 100 mph + in grey/whited out conditions. Guys have tried to dive out of cloud suck but considering you can pull the wings off some gliders at 70 mph, good luck. You don't know which way is up but you are flying there hell bent for leather. Bad part is that if you after you go much above 13,000 in a 50,000 high cloud, you lack sufficient oxygen to stay conscious. That's OK because hypothermia isn't all that far behind. There was a case of some HG in a competition in Europe being sucked up into a cloud. They were later found scattered all over the area, in cold induced fetal positions, dead.

[toby wilson]

AND TOWUPS ARE CRAZY??? :lol:

[ricki]

AND TOWUPS ARE CRAZY??? :lol:

Totally, at least for higher altitude towups.


Why?

The guys that died in the European Comp. were killed in the mid 80's I believe, somewhat early in the learning curve for hang gliding. We know a great deal more about wx related hazards today in flying AND kitesurfing (if people bother to consider it).

Many of the 40 guys that died in 1974 in the USA hang gliding lost it because of gear failure, no safety systems, insufficient knowledge and appreciation of what could go wrong. They were feeling their way along with totally inadequate and inappropriate gear. This could go on for a while. Starting out a new sport can be painful, for the pioneers anyway.

[toby wilson]

I guess so!!! I was just poking fun Rick! :lol: :P :D

[ricki]

It is ironic and a bit humorous to be sure. Just wanted to make sure the point got through. Sorry for the intensity.

p.s. - Here's another variant in development,

http://www.sportsedgemag.com/sportsedge/products/images/1131980230-25761.jpg

A larger image is at:
http://www.wakekite.com/img/large/Lar_01.jpg

I communicated a bit with the developers, it sounds like they are really trying to develop something that might take off. You flick the control bar to throw jumps. Your height and glide duration are a function of the degree of technique you employ. It isn't simply a function of pull velocity unlike regular tow ups. I understand they use weak links (big hint for survivability) and other safety considerations. Ken Winner developed the kite for the activity. Time will tell how well it does once it hits the market.

[CrazyJay]

we are headed to the skyway. It's 10 am ... should be there around 11- 11:30. I am bringing my camera but need someone to tape. Anyone else available? call me or meet us there 727-510-6452

[toby wilson]

Sorry Jay, just saw this (12:30) and tried to call you but no answer...you may be on the water, not sure...

[mocean]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBa9wdOANHw&feature=Featured&page=1&t=t&f=b
it looks prity silly but might be a good spec sport.
aj