Inferno / Danny.. Re: your post on Best's Forum

[bryanleighty]

Heya Danny.. regarding the post you put up on Best's forum regarding the high end of a 9m waroo...

Thing is that once you get up to the points that you are wanting to take it, you have to oversheet it to the point of near-inversion.

When I was out on the 9m on Sunday when the wind was in the 30mph range, I was absolutely able to ride comfortably and control the power, but I had to be very careful to not sheet out too mujch. if you are looking for a kite for those super insane 35+ days, a 7m probably would suit better. the 9m is more in lines to a 11m C kite.

Even yesterday in the upper 20's the 9m at times was perfect but when it would just to near 30 I would have to sheet out more than I would like. I had one inversion scare due to putting WAY too much slack on the back lines.

you learn quickly that you need to be conscious of the tension on the lines..

pushing the extreme upper limits on the bow kites is where the problems are occuring ...

[tomstock]

Yeah I've noticed that too. Seems like the bow kites aren't necessarily giving a higher top end (or not by much anyway), but letting you handle the gusts better... unless of course it inverts and then it's instant terror!

Seems the big advantage is a better low end and therefore a wider range.

Can you set up the lines so that the kite can't be dewpowered enough to invert?

[BigR]

You mean sheet out not oversheet

oversheet is when you pull in too much , a kite cannot invert unless U completely slack the back lines by ( under ) sheeting (out )

[inferno]

can anybody tell me the low end on a 7m bow, and by low end i mean able to jump, not just hold my ground?
im afraid if i get a 7m that i might have to much of a gap between it and my 14m (which i can fly in up to 22-23 Knots)

does anybody have one i could demo the next time we get 20knots?

thanx to all

[bryanleighty]

thanks bigR! i edited the post!!!

Tom.. you are mostly correct. :)
I think people buy into the hype that a bow kite (waroo, ion, answer, switchblade, etc..etc..etc..) is going to change your life. it will NOT brighten teeth, cure cancer or do your laundry. I will not lower gas prices or get that hot chick in accounting to give you her phone number (maybe).. but it DOES provide a much larger range in both the upper and lower end.

The lower end performance is unreal. I have been able to hold upwind with ease on a large flat ply board with a 12 bow while others where flying 17m kites.

The highend performace allows you to kite in conditions in the upper range and not feel like you are fighting to maintain control. I have flown many-a-C-kite in gusty conditions and tho I had a whale of a time, flying a bow kite has allowed me to have triple the fun and take the gusts considerably better.

There is still a range with each kite. This is where the mix up is. I read tons of posts on Kiteforum and other places where claims are made on whats is capable on a particular kite and others trying to reproduce riding in those conditions get worked, inverted and then jump online and start bad mouthing the kites because or their mistakes.

There is definitely a larger upper range and the edges of that range are still a bit blurry to me with only a handful of sessions in these conditions...

A bow kite quiver will allow you to have fewer kites and have some overlap so that if conditions change you can stay on the water longer.

still a kite, still the same dangers that all kites bring and still require that you kite safe and smart...

Also.. if you shorten the depower loop, it cannot be sheeted out as much.. this MAY help to prevent any sort of inversion... you lose the ability to dump all power from the kite tho..

Yesterday on my 9m when it was super gusty, i actually powered up the loop to keep as much backline pressure as possible so that I didnt over sheet. also as an Oversheet on the bow dumps power (they fly best sheeted out a bit) it was ideal. if i cranked in, i would oversheet and power would spill off the kite. it would pull me more downwind, but this was not an issue.. wind let up a bit, sheet out, turn upwind and take off!!...

[Skyway Scott]

Interesting discussion.

I agree BOW isn't a magic word.
I've recently had the opp. to ride several of the bows, and I have noticed alot of variation in the upper/lower ranges on different model bows as well as grunt/ease of depower differences, etc.
It's actually quite amazing the variation in performance characteristics between the kites.

A turbo diesel, a waroo and an Ion are three different animals.
All are great kites, but with different pros and cons. Just like with the C-kites.
Anyway, a discussion grouping all bows v. all C's might not be possible.

All I know for sure is this: In 3 weeks I will have 2 Ions (technically not a bow.. ugh.. what are they?) :D
I am anticipitating being much happier with these 2 kites than with my current 4 C kite get up. They seem to fit my riding style the best of all of them. After having said that, I would trade my RRD and Fuels for almost any brand of bow. Daryl and Pat and most of the experienced riders here are still on C-kites.

[bryanleighty]

They seem to fit my riding style

this, of course, is all that matters and is the deciding factor for everyone...

hows the east coast scott??

[Skyway Scott]

Until the storm I was riding every night til the sunset. I had a great session at Matanzas inlet with an outgoing (opposing) current on Suday. The same is 'sposed to happen Friday with 15+ winds outta the East and Donna will be here. We should have an epic day. The jumps with an opposing current are unreal. The level of the riders here is pretty high, so I had to pull out my best trick (30 knots to zero in a heartbeat upon running aground, followed by a kiteloop to faceplant to.. #$it.. did I just break my arm?)

Shannon has been hanging out in the shop alot. He's a cool guy for sure.
We even talked a bit about the hellfish. I know this, if someone told me last summer I would be selling Best Waroos and talking to Shannon Best on a couch, I would have bet them 15 grand they were wrong. I am play it by ear, when opportunity knocks type.. so BAM poker is over and I am in a kite shop.

I talked with Jim's brother Andy this morning.
Chili is okay, but required fairly intense surgery to his arm.
He is looking at at least 4 months. I am going to call him today at the hospital he is in. Sounds to me like the accident was zero his fault and a freak deal.

[BigR]

Yesterday on my 9m when it was super gusty, i actually powered up the loop to keep as much backline pressure as possible so that I didnt over sheet. also as an Oversheet on the bow dumps power



OVERSheet on the bow DOES NOT dump power, it generates MORE power.

I think you have the definition wrong.

Over sheet is when you power up the kite by bringing the bar closer, pulling in

Sheeting out is when you push the bar away

Opposite

Bow kites jump by oversheeting the kite, creating an even greater ANGLE of ATTACK which generates immediate power ( it also stalls the kite when oversheeted too much )

[inferno]

can anybody tell me the low end on a 7m bow, and by low end i mean able to jump, not just hold my ground?
im afraid if i get a 7m that i might have to much of a gap between it and my 14m (which i can fly in up to 22-23 Knots)

does anybody have one i could demo the next time we get 20knots?

thanx to all

anybody?

[bryanleighty]

BigR..

on my waroos 12m and 9m, when i oversheet it in it loses a ton of power. i intentionally rig so that in normal conditions i run with the depower strap pulled about 1/3 and bar is about 5 to 7 inches from loop for the perfect angle to the wind. rigged like this i have some

if I oversheet (fully power the strap and pull bar in) it generates power, yes, but its more of Grunt-type power .. it pulls more downwind as it falls way back in the window.. much like oversheeting a C..

sheet out a bit and the kite zips to the edge of the window, perfectly powered and flinging you upwind.

i found in conditions that are really gusty, having it setup more powered (oversheeted) i was able to control the line tension and ease off the power better..

again.. ive only got about 7 or so hours in these conditions under my belt with these kites..

in either case, with the 25 inches of depower, complete dump of power was there.

[BigR]

Danny: 7M Bow Lori can begin riding at 16-17 kts fully powered at 18-19kts
Alex can as well under those conditions when he used to weigh the same :lol: :shock: :D LOL!


I on the other hand need more like 21kts to begin riding and fully powered at 24 kts

[BigR]

Bryan, yes , oversheeting is way more power but stalls kite. That is why sheeting out moderately is much more efficient for riding than oversheeting ( being too powered ) .

I only oversheet to jump.

Basically what it seems you are doing is depowered the kite on the strap so that you can pull the bar all the way in. of course this means you don't have to travel the bar ( sheet out) as much to de power. Also you can't really oversheet anymore.

I don't know if the reason you did this is because you have to have 25 inches of travel to fully de power the kite? Probably so

My kite only needs 12 inches to fully de power the kite b/c of the pullys on my bar so I can sheet out and leave the de power strap alone and achieve full de power. Leaving my power strap alone means I can also oversheet which stalls the kite out or leads to jumping or both ( depending if I sheet in even more once airborne )

I usually ride with the bar out almost halfway about 4 inches to achieve a balance between oversheeting and sheeting out. This is the most efficient way, IMO

my .25

[bryanleighty]

Ive had a lot of low wind experience on the 12m and found that sheeted out a bit is the key.. i can litterally move the bar 2 inches and watch the kite fly to the edge of the window and gather apparnet wind .. pretty amazing.

my c-kite riding lately, i have been trying to ride smaller kites and larger boards.. really trying to learn to fly (sine) the kite more effectively and become a better kite pilot. its easy enough to rig a bigger kite, but to fly a smaller kite takes some skill and I am trying to learn that .. its come in VERY handy when trying to get as much out of a 12m bow as possible.

i got tired of seeing Ebone out on his 9 meter waroo when I was trying desperately to fly a 15-C. :) decided then and there to do what i could to enhance my skills..

my high wind tactics are still a work in progress. Sunday the "super" gusts were almost too much to handle. sheeting out to the point that the trailing edges were flapping..
sheeted in a couple times and the kite fell back in the window, kite maintained its shape w/o flutter and I was able to edge and ride the gust out. gust died down, sheet out.. enjoy the ride.

Definitely, sheet out for a jump, attain the apex, sheet in, enjoy the view!!!! :) softly sheet out as you drop and you land gently.

the waroo stock bar has 25 or so inches of throw.. this is too much to my liking.. i can depower fully with about 15 inches or less... i am going to play around with the CL length a bit and find that happy medium.. probably shorten to 18 inches for the first go-round, adjust back lines accordingly, etc....

[inferno]

thats why i plan on putting my waroo on a SS bar, its has about 13 inches of sheeting, and another 5-6 inches on the depower line, that should be more then enough for the 9m and smaller waroos

[Skyway Scott]

Some of you will get a kick out of the irony :D


Shannon has been hanging out in the shop alot. He's a cool guy for sure.
We even talked a bit about the hellfish. I know this, if someone told me last summer I would be selling Best Waroos and talking to Shannon Best on a couch, I would have bet them 15 grand they were wrong.
Funny stuff! That one pic is of me taking his picture while Daryl orders more Waroos on the phone.
The other is one of Daryl biting a Best Girl's nipple (Kristin didn't approve)
Check out Shannon's shorts, (after you check out his girl's shorts). They were the s#$t.

http://www.bestkiteboarding.com/s.nl;jsessionid=ac112b1f1f43a351549b6b3044a49919ba b766f84878.e3eTaxiNaN0Te3yPcheObNaPb41ynknvrkLOlQz Np65In0?it=I&id=52

[toby wilson]

Skyway Scott on the BEST website, who woulda thunk it!?!?

[Optionryder420]

Did you meet dre?

That guy is a badass... I watched a video of his riding and it's just inspiring.

His wakestyle tricks are badass, then him on sliders are just smooooooth

[Skyway Scott]

Toby,

This is America, anything, no matter how perverse, is possible. :)

Too bad the old forum isn't up.. some funny shit is on there b/n me, Gordon, Window Guy and Tom! I think the waroos are good kites (which is good, b/c I have sold several of them in just a few days).
I have been riding both the 16m Waroo and the 16m Caution lately and like them both (they are different, but I am riding them over my own C-Kite).

We are getting the first hyper-type prototype (RRD) in the country tomorrow to demo and I'll get to ride that Frdiay. Sweet!! I hope it's good and I don't get worked on it :D Too bad you guys aren't closer, I'd let you ride it and give honest inputs. When I come in to visit, I will grab as much stuff as Daryl let's me.

[C. Moore]

When I come in to visit, I will grab as much stuff as Daryl let's me.

Just make sure it's the free stuff. :D

[Skyway Scott]

I meant stuff to demo. We just got a new kite in that really kicks ass that I would like you guys to check out if I get the ok to bring it back.
http://www.oceanextremesports.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24_50&products_id=290

It reallyjumps like mad due to its multiple wingspans.
The main drawback is that it is pretty twitchy.

[toby wilson]

I dunno Scott, it may be out of our price range... :lol:

[shawnwar4586]

what ever any of you do dont buy a 3m waroo we use them for lessons and the thing inverts all over the place

[toby wilson]

Technochick, check out Shawn's post above...that is what I was talking about with the Waroo pricing tonight... :wink:

[JoshTaylor]

Did you meet dre?

That guy is a badass... I watched a video of his riding and it's just inspiring.

His wakestyle tricks are badass, then him on sliders are just smoooooothif you read a little bit more, you'd notice that thoes pictures with Dre' in it was at real, in cape hatteras.

yeah that guys madd crazy on the water.

[toby wilson]

I have been in touch with Shawn Warmouth though and he met Dre, Andy and Moe...he said he and some of the other instructors also tricked an instructor into thinking he made out with Suzi Mai!!! :lol:

[Skyway Scott]

Way to go Shawn :wink:

[bryanleighty]

Who here hasn't made out with Suzi Mai?????

[toby wilson]

Mr. Leighty, licking her picture doesn't count!!! :P

[shawnwar4586]

You will not belive how good these guys are until u see them in person. Dre is a super cool guy and just kills it. Moeau is killing it for sure and he is halarious. Suzi was throwing some of the knarliest kite loops ive ever seen. Andy Hurdman is the cooles and hes halarious too. I also say hurdman thorw a blind to blind kite loop.Shannon is supper coool and throws some of the highest jumps ive ever seen. Davey blair is a super down to earth kinda guy jst fun all around. All these guys u only see alittle bit of their talent in the videos. Wait for real to release the tripple s video it will blow your mind. The footage they have is so amazing.

[bryanleighty]

ha.

i didnt just lick it.

[toby wilson]

So THAT's why we found her picture at the backside...glad I didn't touch it!!!