iKitesurf sucks!

[dstjohn]

Hi guys. David from ikitesurf here - lost you for a while when the old forum disappeared. Glad to find you here. Overdue for a review and update.

So, the general consensus is that iKitesurf is severely lacking in the Tampa/St. Pete area compared with other areas around the country. As a kiter and an employee of WeatherFlow in our Florida (New Smyrna Beach) office, let me say this: "We totally agree with you!!!" It's really not just Tampa/St. Pete, but all of Florida. What we have now is better than nothing, in my opinion, but we are committed to bringing Florida up to the level of other areas where we have more weather stations and better forecasts. Our goal is to have the same kind of coverage across the country as we have in areas like San Francisco, Chesapeake Bay and the Gorge.

As with anything, it's all a matter of time and priorities. And our priorities are mainly driven by demand. It also requires strong support from locals, and we definitely seem to have that from you guys. Last fall we set up an "install-a-sensor" program for Ft. De Soto. Through this program, anyone can sign up and get FREE ikitesurf membership. You are not charged *anything* until a weather station near Ft. De Soto is installed. Signing up this way is the best way to show your support for more weather stations in the area. The link to do that is www.ikitesurf.com/ftdesoto . If you aren't sure whether you signed up that way, send me a PM and I'll let you know - or just sign up again through that link - it won't hurt.

Now, in the eight months we've had that program going, TWELVE PEOPLE have signed up through that link. What does that say about demand? Well, twelve is enough (just barely) to justify one weather station, but it's hard to say to my partners, "Hey, look, there are twelve kiters here! Let's install a whole bunch of weather stations!" So, if you haven't already, sign up at www.ikitesurf.com/ftdesoto - there is *nothing* to lose and lots to gain - even if it takes a while to see it come to fruition.

The other positive factor is that kiters are not the only potential customers for WeatherFlow. We have some interest from sailors and fishermen, as well as government and private organizations. We're working to build that demand so that we can really increase coverage in the area. It's just impossible to say *WHEN* - it's painfully slow sometimes - I'll continue updating you guys as things progress.

Meanwhile, we've got enough sign-ups just among kiters to justify a single station, and we've been trying hard to get permission to install at Ft. De Soto. But after initial enthusiam from the Parks Department, efforts to get permission to install at Ft. De Soto have been met with strong resistance from upper management at the Parks Department. My calls have not been returned in 6 months. We're pursuing other angles now, but the process can be long and difficult. I will keep you posted as things change.

I know this all sounds like the same old story - believe me I wish things were moving faster too. Thanks for your continued support and patience!

David

[Eagle]

Thank you for the iKite update David.
The issue in our area is not a lack of sensors, rather a lack of ACCURATE sensors. Hopefully the instrument accuracy will improve in our area; it appears that P.O.R.T.S http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/tbports/tbports.shtml?port=tb has undergone some changes which the new website reflects.
There is an abundance of free weather information available on the web provided by the public and private sector and unless iKite can offer a service the others currently do not offer, I see it difficult to justify $80 + a year for a membership.

I would like to see more real time cams at or near the wind sensor locations. This will help prevent wasted fuel and speeding tickets on the way to the launch site only to discover the reported 15-18 knots is in fact sub 10.

Another suggestion to improve iKite would be a sea breeze prediction, if such a thing exists.
Keep us posted and take care.

Bryan E

[Skyway Scott]

The FX sensors are currently way off (so I disagree, they aren't better than having nothing).
That's the entire reason I cancelled my FX membership.

I would love to have a better system in place in St. Pete, that's for sure. So, it'd be fantastic if something came about. We currently have 50+ riders in the area and IMO, alot of them would join if we had 2 (or more) accurate sensors. I know I would.

After having said that, I can tell you this factual statement --
I got skunked about 15 times less this season than last season.
Why? Because I didn't drive out to PaG when the FX sensor said 18+ to find 9 or less like I did last year (since I don't have access to it anymore)
I currently use the Baynews9 vidcam and I am biased towards cameras because whitecaps simply can't lie/exaggerate. I too, wish we had more cams pointed at water.

Good luck David. It'd be great to have some accurate information here.

[dstjohn]

Thanks, guys. Yes, there's lots of good free info out there. One of the things we try to do is collect all the kite-relevant info in one place - and that's a free service - no membership accont required. PORTS has a few good locations, but the wind info is kind of secondary to the water level and current info for PORTS. Their locations are not normally chosen for good wind info. We put the ones that seem somewhat useful on our site (Skyway, Ports of Tampa, Manatee). If you guys know of other useful free data, let me know and I'll try to get it on our website.

Scott, I probably wouldn't have an FX membership if I lived in St. Pete either. But it wouldn't hurt if you conditionally upgraded using the special link: http://www.ikitesurf.com/ftdesoto . You can still chose to ignore the P.O.S. P-a-G station, but the more commitments we have, the sooner something can happen. We won't charge you anything until we install the new station, and you can always cancel if dissatisfied.

I believe there are 50+ kiters in the area, and growing. But only 12 have signed up with that link. I know there must be more than 12 kiters out there who'd appreciate a weather station at De Soto or nearby. Of the twelve who used that link, 11 have looked at ikitesurf almost every day over the last week, so hopefully we're good for something (even if it's just as a place to collect all the free info in one place).

Let me know where you'd like that second weather station so I can get it on the list. Something for the north skyway causeway launch?

As for cams, I agree they can tell you more than a weather station sometimes. We're experimenting with a couple webcams this year. If all goes well we plan to install more.

Take it easy,

David

[Skyway Scott]

Thanks for the inputs David. I admit, I look at Ikite about 20 times a day.

So, the deal is we get (how many guys?) to sign up for free and show interest and then what happens? and what kind of possible time frame?

A web cam would be cool :twisted:

[BigR]

skyway sensor, c cuts, works AWESOME for me on SW W winds since they hit it first before hitting us ( and increasing a few kts )

[toby wilson]

I have to chime in here. I am one of the 12, and yes, one of the 11 who have checked it out in the last week. Just yesterday the airport sensor was reading 12 knots all afternoon so I decided to hit up Cypress. We were lucky if we had 9 knots, so I was skunked EVEN ON MY 25.5 METER MACHINE!!! I hope the improvements are drastic. Like you said, the last promises were made about 6 months ago and not much progress has been made since. I really wish you the best of luck, the cams seem like the best way to keep everyone happy...

Also, why is the focus made on kiters? What about windsurfers? Are there none of them that have registered? I know we have plenty of windsurfers in the area too so I am pretty sure that the interest factor is here regardless of how many kiters have signed up, like I said last time this came up...show that you have a worthwhile product and people will naturally decide it is worth it and be willing to pay. You may not be asking for money now, but you are asking for us all to commit to a product that has not yet proven itself in our area. Now being logical, who should be taking the chance here? Who has the better risk/reward factor here. I'll go out on a limb and say that I think that Ikitesurf does seeing that you will have us committed once it is "up" even if we don't like it. We DID sign up after all. If you offer a great product, your risk is minimal to the potential of a great reward. The great companies of the world proved themselves first before they became popular...Ikite should be no exception to that rule in my opinion.

Thanks for all of your efforts though,

Toby

[BigR]

Just yesterday the airport sensor was reading 12 knots all afternoon so I decided to hit up Cypress. We were lucky if we had 9 knots


Tthat is not an Ikitesurf sensor, you can't knock ikitesurf for an inaccurate sensor that is not theirs and just happens to be hooked into their network.
They cannot make improvements/ changes to sensors that don't belong to them

[Unimog Bob]

Raul is right they can’t do anything to improve sensors that don’t belong to them. They could put the PAG sensor in a better location so the readings are meaningful and adding a web cam to that location should be minor investment. Even a crappy one that only spits out a single frame every few seconds would be enough to see what we need to see. We’ve even volunteered to help move maintain and repair the sensor with no result. Ikant needs to step up before I’m willing to get on board.

Bob

[Skyway Scott]

skyway sensor, c cuts, works AWESOME for me on SW W winds since they hit it first before hitting us ( and increasing a few kts )
Raul,

Do you think that sensor works well for anyone on NEs (when most people read it) when we are wanting to ride at our skyway launch?

Who thinks that sensor is accurate for us on NE winds? Who feels it is off?

The reason I ask is that I think we could benefit from having a new sensor at the location of our spot, not 3 miles out in the channel on East winds. Just wanted yours/everyone's inputs on that idea.

[Unimog Bob]

I shouldn't post until I get a few cups of coffe in me. On a more positive note FDOT has a network of sensors on their bridges. I can see the ultra sonic one on the skyway every night on my way home. Also I call the structure E bridge (from pinellas bayway to TV) to get a wind reading from time to time. Someone with a little get up and go that hasn't gotten up and went should be able to get access to this public sector data to paint a more complete picture of our winds. Heck with a little effort it might be something worth paying for.

Bob

[toby wilson]

Well then I can bitch about all of the days I have been skunked by the PAG or skyway sensor like everyone else! Besides, if it were my site, I would avoid putting up sensors that I knew had inaccurate readings on it...

[dstjohn]

All great input, guys. Yes, I absolutely agree the proof will be in our pudding. You guys don't have to listen to me. But we're actively installing weather stations all over the country (about 40 in the last 12 months). The priority list for where they go in is all driven by demand.

The St. Pete/Tampa area *will* rise to the top of the list at some point - all I'm trying to say is there are things that can be done to make it rise faster. And yes, it's not just kiters. We are talking to yacht clubs, sailing schools, marinas, windsurfing shops, universities, shipping companies, etc. It's the combination of interest/demand from all groups that drives our priorities. You guys, like many kiters, are just more organized than most.

I'm not asking you to give us anything *before* we give you something back. Contrary to what Toby said, someone who shows his support by signing up via the install-a-sensor program at www.ikitesurf.com/ftdesoto is *not* locked in. Even after we install a new station (or two or three) and activate your account, you can cancel your membership with a full refund if you're not satisfied with it.

As for promises, I have tried to be careful about making any. There are simply too many unknowns - priorities, permissions, politics, logistics, etc. I can't say "if you get 30 guys to commit we'll install 2 stations in 3 months." All I can tell you is that if we had 30 commitments rather than 12, this area will get a lot more attention. And it will cost you nothing.

Bob, those FDOT sites are definitely interesting, especially the bridge-mounted stations. It's actually a partnership between FDOT and a bunch of universities. I've talked to a couple of the researchers working on that project and I'm trying to get them to put the data in an easy to digest format. It still seems to be very experimental, and they say the data quality is not so great, but hopefully they'll get it together soon.

Finally, if you guys collectively agree some of the public weather stations on our maps are truly worse than nothing, and should come off, please let me know. And just being inaccurate is not a good reason to take it down. The quesiton is whether it's *useful*. It wouldn't be smart to pull a site off our map just because you got skunked once. Even inaccurate weather data can be useful.

In fact, *most* weather stations don't give you a totally accurate reflection of the wind on the water right where you happen to be kiting. Most sites have to be "calibrated" for where you kite, in your own brain. For example, I know Ponce Inlet reads low on west wind, so I add a few knots to it from that direction. I know Matanzas reads a little high, so I adjust it.

Toby, you can definitely bitch to me about P-a-G, but Skyway's not ours either - it's a PORTS site :wink:

The P-a-G sensor is on top of the Hurricane Grill. If it reads high, it's because it's 50 feet off the ground and the buildings may be accelerating the wind. I'd love to put a station out over the water, 30 feet off the surface. But where does such a location exist? I've looked and I couldn't find a better place anywhere from P-a-G to Treasure Island. But you guys know the area better than I. We thought we had a better spot on one of the Redington piers, but the owner didn't see having a station there as a benefit. Find a better spot and I'll try to get it moved!

David

[Skyway Scott]

:D
Yo' Toneeeeeee!!
(Inside joke about unwillingness of pier owner to help out)

Well, I just logged in to that site and did the "in support of DeSoto FX membership. Sounds simple enough. Just show interest.

David. Unfortunately the Skyway sensor is not just a few knots off.
It is quite common (on a NE) for it to read 17 and have it blowig sub 10.
Then some days its "in the ball park". It is truly a crap shoot.. no rhyme or reason.

PaG was even worse. It might be better in the last 5 months, I wouldn't know. But it consistently gave readings of 17 when in fact, no exaggeration, it was sub 7.

Anyway, I showed interest by signing up for that "can't lose" deal. It's kind of like getting a free lottery ticket is how I see it at this point. :wink:
Hopefully other guys will sign up, too.

[dstjohn]

Thanks, Scott. I see you in the "support Ft De Soto" list - so we're up to 13 now!

David

[Skyway Scott]

Sure.

Hey guys. It's free, nothing to lose. David basically just needs to demonstrate interest to his bosses.

Please sign up. I would not have signed up if I thought I had to pay for something I didn't want. We might get a vid cam or a working sensor.
We might NOT... but, its zero risk.

Please, pretty please :)

It only took about 5 minutes. It looks like you are paying thru a credit card (but you aren't).

I know that the guys that signed up for this initially never got charged and have access to all the FX stuff for free (otherwise I would not have done it).

It's kind of the least amount of effort we can do to "possibly" get a good sensor here in St. Pete, isn't it?

Hey, if it sucks, you never pay! AND we can really badmouth Ikan't then! :evil:
But, maybe David can get us our FIRST dedicated vidcam on the hurricane?! or somehthing better. Its worth it to have faith at zero risk, IMO. :D

[pdfox]

I agree Scott.

Alex and Jordan are signed up under this deal.

If everyone shows an interest maybe we can get something good to happen.

We can't lose.

Since you love to post here how about another topic to attract peoples attention.

"Ikitesurf sucks now, but might not later"
"Free Ikitesurf offer"
"Lets all get together and make something good happen"
"Free wind"

Paul

[E-Bone]

Hey, I already have an ikitesurf account and I have had one for some time now, maybe a few years. Can I sign up with the link, or just give my info to David so he knows that da' Bone needs mo' betta 411?

[dstjohn]

e-bone, give me your iK username and I'll hook you up.

David

[pdfox]

E-Bone,

From what I understand if you have an existing account your billing will be put into suspense for the period of time that it takes for them to get a new sensor installed. No brainer - do it. I did.

Paul

[E-Bone]

OK, I sent a private message to David. Thanks for the encouragement, Paul. If you don't have any brains, then neither do I.

[dstjohn]

Bone, you are hooked up. Ignore any confusing emails the sysetem may have generated - I botched the upgrade a couple times.

That puts us at 14. Thanks guys.

David

[Allan]

I also signed up as a free member in the past.

[tomstock]

Didn't extreme kites also donate some money for the sensor?

I think last round we were told we needed 8 (or 12) signups for a sensor. We beat by also getting a local shop donate. I know for a fact ikite also lost a few paid members when the last sensor promise turned to dust.

Are you guys going to do it or should we pay some other company to install one for us and feed our own sensor website? A few of us are software and hardware engineers so we could do it, but we're kind of waiting around to see if you guys would come through.

Considering the number of students who complete lessons every month I can't believe you guys are stalling!

-tom

[BigR]

Tom ,

I believe they said they are looking for a good spot to put the sensor at and that will also let them place/ maintain/ access it there

[Skyway Scott]

I understand Tom and others frustration/suspicion.

I do know that David (and Chili) put in ALOT of effort to try to get us a sensor at: The redington long pier -- (Tony Bolgna screwed 'em).

Fort DeSoto -- (initial high hopes were left to fall by the wayside.. by the park).

Ikite tried. Sounds like they are ready for round 2. Thing is, we have zero to lose. THEY have alot of time and energy to lose on what might appear to them to be a "tough town" with disinterested kiters and whacked pier owners :?

It'd be great if alot of us just fill out the free form and show interest. It's kind of like a petition with a perk, is it not? :D
If the stuff they put up works, great, if not, they lost time and energy, while we wasted only 3 minutes filling out a form.

[JoshTaylor]

I've been signed up for a whileeeeeee

I was actually the one person who was not checking it daily. lol

[toby wilson]

I feel better about this now that I see that locals who have paid for years can now sign up for free. It shows effort on Ikites part. I respect your efforts and as I already said am previously signed up for the Desoto project. Please let us know if there is anything we can do to help David!

[dstjohn]

Thanks guys. That's a good way to think of it, Scott - this is round 2. I've been doing this for 11 years - a lot of rounds in a lot of areas. So far it's not going so well in this area. But this is a process and it takes a bunch of things to fall into place - demand, permissions, resources, hard work, and support from guys like you.

Yes, 12 guys is enough commitments for a weather station (we're up to 15 now!). Yes, Extreme Kites has committed to contributing some sponsorship cash to a sensor. So, we've got some demand established, and we're ready to install a senosr or two. But it takes more than that....

We worked pretty hard last fall to make something happen. If we had permisison at Ft De Soto or Redington (or any other good spots), we'd have at least two weather stations installed already.

SO..... Tom, sorry you think we're somehow stalling. Certainly nothing's stopping you from installing your own weather station. But paying someone else to install one? Hey - if you've got a good spot already, let me know where it is and *we'll* put it up!!!!!

david

[toby wilson]

David,

PM Bryan Eagle. I know he used to know a woman who had a rather large house on the water who was supposedly willing to have a station put on the roof. I haven't talked to him in some time, but I know he was talking about it during *round 1*. I don't think it is a 'perfect' spot for all wind directions, but at least it would help on some of them...Hope this helps at least some.

Also, is there someone who was borderline who would maybe be willing if we all showed them our support as locals?

Thanks!

[dstjohn]

Bryan, PM me the details on your friend's house if that's still an option. I remember talking about a potential location near redington, but I never got any of the details.

Keep in mind that most of the buildings along Bay are too protected to be a good spot (just look at P-a-G!!). But there are alwasy exceptions. A "good" spot needs to have a clean fetch and not be too high above sea level. One of the redington piers would be great. Aids to navigation (markers, jetties, lights) are good spots too.

david

[Unimog Bob]

David,
I believe I could obtain permission for a sensor at a structure behind shell Island. It is owned by the company I work for. If you look on Google earth it is just south of PAG and is called Panama key. You’d probably want to put it on a mast. The major drawback is no power or phone lines.

Bob

[tomstock]

...

[toby wilson]

...

:?:

[dstjohn]

Bob and I had a quick discussion via PM. Looks like his spot has the potential to be good, but more info is needed. This is the spot on google maps (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=27.6708472,+-82.7344611&ll=27.69204,-82.726364&spn=0.164767,0.418854&t=h&om=1). Looks like the pier might be good, though there are a lot of trees on the island. Assuming the fetch is clean, what do you guys think of the location in general? Do you think this might give a good read for Ft De Soto and/or the P-a-G beach area?

David

[Skyway Scott]

Is that Panama Key? with the nice dock on it.

We ride back in there sometimes (some ride there alot)
It can be very gusty back in there. I don't know.

[BigR]

Gusty means its not clean wind + I'll bet that house directly N will block wind from that direction

[bayflite]

Aids to navigation (markers, jetties, lights) are good spots too.

lots of these structures around.
do we need permission, and from who.

also, do you need power/phone/internet hookup?

thanks for not giving up on us david.

[toby wilson]

Right on, Bayflite!!!

[dstjohn]

Yes, you need permission, and we can sometimes get it depending on how useful the data would be for other parties (NWS, coast guard, etc.). We have to go solar power with telemetry which makes the installation more expensive and more logistically complicated, but we're doing more and more of these that way. They are really the best locations because they're typically right on the water and have 360 degrees of clean fetch.

If you know of any markers like this, the best thing you can do is give me as much detail on it as you can (general location, digital pics, lat/lon, ID, official name from nautical charts, etc.).

David