Excesssively gusty winds ... ?

[ricki]

What do you consider to be excessively gusty and how do you deal with it?
Have you had any misadventures in gusty stuff, if so, what happened?

I am not necessarily talking about 20 mph gusts above background wind speed or obvious squall winds in this but the more routine up-down stuff. Of course if you have some major gust stories, toss 'em in.

Lots of our experience came from C kites that deal with gusts to a limited extent and then translate the additional force to the riders. What changes have you experienced so far with the new flat kites? (Hopefully not a sense of squall immunity.) I have a bad feeling that we may have some fairly spectacular squall related accidents in time with flat kites.

[C. Moore]

Rick,

I am sure Tom Stock will have a lot to say about this. He got caught in a squall last year and was dragged from the water, over the beach, and over a road. Thank god he walked away from it.

I haven't tested out the limit to really gusty conditions with my GK Sonic but I am sure I will have my day. :wink:

-Chris

[tomstock]

Yeah... not sure this is what you are looking for but since Chris brought it up:

The sky cleared and the wind died... then it changed directions and went from 12-16 side on to dead onshore at 30-40 mph (going from memory here may not be accurate). I was on an 18M kite and was underpowered for the 45 minutes before that gust.... This was also when i was less experienced and less aware of the signs of wind about to change direction.

I really would have been just fine if my quick release had worked. Instead, while pulling it with both hands as hard as I could, I got dragged 75 yards at top speed just skipping across the water. I was going to crash my kite but there were people standing on the beach and in the water. When I hit the beach I got lofted 6ft in the air and traveled about 30 feet between trees and signs, then hitting at full speed, falling on my side and my bar hit the ground and looped the kite. When it looped it shot me across a 2 lane road on my stomach, 6ft behind a passing car. As the kite stalled for a second after the loop I somehow managed to unhook. Actually i though was going to die and used all of my strength to get unhooked. I slid to a stop right at the treeline. This seemed like one of those chain of events that just keeps getting worse and worse... oh crap.. OH CRAP... OHHHHHH CRAAAAAAP..... OMG IM GONNA DIE.... OH MY GOD NOW I *AM* GONNA DIE... OH NO NOW I'M REALLY REALLY GONNA DIE HERE IT COMES...pause..... holy crap I'm ALIVE!!!!!!

While my awareness is partially to blame, my real blame is for the best quick release I was using. It came rigged backwards from the factory and I used it that way unknowingly. It has a design flaw which prevents it from releasing if not rigged just right. The thing is it will work under load, but not under a lot of load so you don't know until you REALLY need it. Just a month ago i saw someone with the same quick release... and it was also rigged backwards from the factory in what I call "death" mode. I fixed it and told them to get rid of it asap.

I hope nobody goes through that experience. I consider myself lucky to be alive.

The only damage was to two booties (my feet went through them when I landed, one ended up around my calf), some skin from road rash, and my harness was really chewed up from the road. Oh, and my pride.

One thing I learned... if the release fails, crash the kite immediately and unhook.

[bryanleighty]

Tom, which QR is that exactly?

I have an 04 best bars with the standard best QR (pull from right above the CL). The QR seems to work fine. never had to pull it in need, but just in test.

I also have an 05 best bar with QR on the CL.. same thing where it seems to work fine on my land tests.. never had to use it in need.

-B

[tomstock]

It's similar to the one on the swivel bar:
http://media.bestkiteboarding.com/manuals/Archive/SwivelBar04_manual.pdf

The correct way is to run the loop from chicken loop through the loop of the depower rope and insert the pin.

The wrong way is to run the depower rope loop through the chicken loop's loop. If you do it this way, it will WORK FINE until it's under heavy load. When that happens, the head of the pin gets pulled into the gap between the loops, making it IMPOSSIBLE to pull.

I released my kite on light wind days regularly to test my release... but when I was being dragged and lofted under full load the pin set and the release did not work. I've tested this release since then and confirmed the results with 100% certainty. If you rig that release backwards it will not work under load. Thats why best has switched to a different release (except for the swivel bar because they haven't come up with a solution yet).

I heard from Al that Noel confirmed that others had problems with these too... if you have one get rid of it and get the new one from best. It's that 04 release that is the death machine. i'm willing to bet yours is rigged backwards RIGHT NOW! It's actually easier to rig it backwards than the right way!

[bryanleighty]

yep.. thats the one i got on one of my bars..
i will check when i get home to see how I put it back together. I *think* I do it correctly...

better to get a new CL for 20 bucks.

[Eagle]

I witnessed Tom's accident and he is very lucky to be alive. There was a passing car at the time which Tom missed by about 2'.

I recall that day was overcast with a few areas of dark clouds. The sky did clear prior to the accident, but if I am not mistaken there was a noticeable change in the air temp and some wispy fast moving low level clouds a few minutes before the wind shifted directions and started nuking.

I remember this because I was riding and made the descision to land the kite and by the time I was close to my vehicle and sat on the tailgate Tom was skipping across the water and heading to the beach. Once on the beach Tom looped the kite, skidded across the road on his spreader bar/stomach and stopped 25' short of the mangroves where his kite crashed.

When I got to Tom he was sitting upright, had the deer in headlights look on his face and was grateful to be alive.
That was a scary situation and thank God it turned out ok.

The lesson to be learned from this situation is to inspect, test and become familiar with your safety release system as if your life depended on it, it might. Mentally rehearsing where the release is and how to activate it while you are riding helps develop muscle memory and will prepare you for an emergency.

What do I consider gusty? A 15 mph or more increase in wind speed over the average or baseline reading.
Locally this is most common during the winter cold fronts and summer squalls.

Kite safe,

E

[Skyway Scott]

My "definition" of excessively gusty is when it is not fun to ride.
From my experience, this is when the the range of winds during riding commmonly double from lull to top end.

Examples... 10 to 20, 15 to 30, and 20 to 40. I have also ridden in 30 to 50.

By defintion, in these situations, the power you experience varies by a magnitude of 4 fold while riding. That makes for unusual riding, especially if you don't even sheet out the C-loop like myself (I know... weird)

I make this more manageable/fun by rigging the kite for the gusts and riding a large board to keep me afloat in the lulls. So on a day where it is 15 to 30 (alot, not just occassional puffs) I would rig an 10m kite and use my Underground 157. In the lulls I am riding underpowered but not losing ground, in the gusts I am holding on, and in the middle, I am quite happy.

Obviously the bow kites makes these days ALOT more manageable.
St. Pete, IMO, is a gusty place, so my 157 is my go to board.
Every one approaches riding different, so my way aint the "right way", but that's how I do it, Rick, I rig for the gusts and ride a slightly bigger board than the average guy. On a steady day, I rig bigger than most people.

The day Tom got dragged, I called Eagle's phone 10 minutes prior to the incident leaving him a message to please beware and tell others because doppler looked like HELL and it was obvious something was up. (Remember Brian?)
Immediately upon getting my message he called me back (that was about 10 minutes after Tom got whacked) We were ALL upset and concerned for Tom.

I spoke with Tom for at least an hour that day, letting him vent his angers (which is usually the result of fear) on me, instead of his girl. (I recommend you don't vent about getting whacked to your girl, she might ask you to stop kiting). I have been worked several times, so I knew he was scared/pissed and needed to talk. If you are not scared of wind events (especially after getting worked), you really should be.

After talking to Tom at length, it became clear his QR failed after multiple attempts at pulling it. This was discussed at length on our local forum.
In the final analysis, it was discovered that the QR allowed one to rig it backwards and that this may have been what happened. Tom is a very safety oriented rider,especially coming from a cave diving background. The QR failed several times that day.
I have a QR on my C-loop and a shackle (as backup).
My QR failed once, luckily the shackle worked. These events usually happen within seconds (or less). The further from shore you are when it happens, the better.

[tomstock]

Deer in headlights is right. I can't even begin to tell you HOW happy I felt when i sat up and realized I was alive and it was over. I was actually laughing when Eagle drove up to see if I was ok. Not because I thought anything was fun but because I was sooooooo happy to be alive, I felt like i had just skirted death or serious injury and I was damn happy about it.

It takes experience to be able to read the weather.. especially when it's the subtle hints like lulls and slight directional changes.. (like Eagle said he felt it and got off the water)... those are small warnings of something bigger to come. In some cases the sky clears before the BIG blow. Sometimes it's unnoticed until it's too late.

Anyway... check that release. If your weather awareness fails or has not yet been fully developed (as is/was my case), you need to be able to get that kite off quick, on the first try.

-tom

[bryanleighty]

If you are not scared of wind events (especially after getting worked), you really should be.


Yep.

I got a nice little reminder about a month ago. Gusty conditions.. very choppy water.. one foot came out of a strap and in my efforts to correct this I oversteered the kite and got airborne and brought down in some super shallow water (Sandbar at Cypress).

Came down with a smack.. didnt break or twist anything .. just gave me a huge scare. (the pain came the next day). After the long board retreival I was shaken up and couldnt kite anymore that day. My next few times out I was so tenative about everything. Took a while to get back into a flow again. I can assume Tom that you went through a number of sessions to get back into it.

My friend got worked on a transition a couple weeks ago early in the day. He was shaken up a bit and was calling it quits for the day. I convinced him to go back out and regain his confidence. He did and ended up having a great afternoon.

It looks like we got through this season without anyone local getting injured to the point that they were unable to continue soon after. I know that EBone is our latest kitemare after a rigging problem went completely sour. I saw him a couple days later on the water and he was talking about how he just needed to get back out to work out the bad feelings from his accident.

-B

[Eagle]

My "definition" of excessively gusty is when it is not fun to ride.

The day Tom got dragged, I called Eagle's phone 10 minutes prior to the incident leaving him a message to please beware and tell others because doppler looked like HELL and it was obvious something was up. (Remember Brian?)
Immediately upon getting my message he called me back (that was about 10 minutes after Tom got whacked) We were ALL upset and concerned for Tom.


Yea, when its not fun to ride is a pretty good gust indicator.
Scott you should tell everyone about your experience with the leading edge of a cold front.

I do remember the message and had I been on the beach would have recieved it. I'm glad the return call was good news.

[E-Bone]

I am happy to report that I am back to normal after the worst kitemare I have ever had in 5+ years of kiting. I figured out the problem with the kite, as well. My lines were not crossed in the usual manner. What happened is that the left rear bridle got tangled on a scuff guard or something else after I rigged but before I launched. My left rear line was thus effectively 3 to 4 feet shorter than the right rear line. Yeah, that might create some steering problems.

This is a potential hazard with flat kites that can be dealt with by using a little extra caution with the bridle while launching. Caution on my part was in short supply that day, and I got worked as a result. With high or gusty winds, everything changes fast when something goes wrong. The flat kites give and take away. Because they can handle high wind and gusts so well, we will likely be charging more and more high wind and gusty sessions. In doing so, however, we will increase the stakes should something go wrong.

Word on the QR. When I had my problem, I was on the 9m Waroo in 25 to 30. Megapower, especially given that the kite was looping in the middle of the window. After I pulled the chickenloop QR, the kite actually pulled on my SS bungee so hard that it yanked the ring out my Dakine seat harness. Had I not known how to use the QRs on my rig I would have been in deeper shit. It's hard to figure out your gear for the first time when you are busying tunneling into the beach like a mole rat on steroids. I had sand coming out of my ears for days.

[toby wilson]

Tom's accident wasn't an isolated case either. About 2 months ago I was catching an after-work session in the afternoon/evening and a real nice guy was visiting the area from Michigan and was at East Beach when I got there. I think Colin may have been there that day too, not sure. We were all riding and having a great time but I decided to come in early to pack my gear up as the wind was pretty light and the night before I held the Rangers up after dark and didn't want them to think it was going to be a pattern or anything.

Right about 30 minutes before dark, the guy from Michigan tried to drag back to his board near shore after a fall (much like Tom's situation) and got picked up by a gust, dragged up the beach and across the street and the kite once again stalled just before he hit those mangroves at the entrance to the backside of East Beach. The gusts at East Beach are NO JOKE and I, for one am not gonna fool around with ANY chance that I could be next...at the slightest hint of dangerous winds, my ass is OFF of the water!!!

[tomstock]

After I pulled the chickenloop QR, the kite actually pulled on my SS bungee so hard that it yanked the ring out my Dakine seat harness.

Glad you survived the big one!

[bryanleighty]

Yo Yo Yo Ebone..

Check this out...

http://forum.bestkiteboarding.com/viewtopic.php?t=1707

Caution must be advised.

-B

[Skyway Scott]

Ebone. Didn't know til I read your story. Glad you are okay.

I have noticed the tendency of the Bows to do this as well. Therefore, IMO, the launching of these kites is a tad more dangerous than of a C, especially the self launch, due to line "tangle/wrap" issues.

Call me paranoid, but I always launch with my finger within the QR "red circle". If anything goes wrong, my finger will instinctually clam up and pull (not relax) to release the kite. Things have gone wrong approximately ten times out of at least 1,000 launches for me. That's only one percent, but, it only takes one really bad one.

I still believe the launching of a kite is the most dangerous moment in kiting, mainly because you aren't 100% sure that the lines aren't tangled or something. Donna has never launched her own kite if I am around.
I am cautious, and I realize the odds are small, but when I have the ability to make the odds close to zero of getting whacked, I take that opportunity.
Almost all of the really bad kitemares I have seen have been on a launch gone bad. People are caught off guard, kites are hauling ass (usually in a circular manner), and obstacles are close by.... yikes.......not much time to think or grab a moving target.

Glad you are Ok. I too had a sand mole express ride of almost a half mile once... not fun. :shock: (I had been kiting for about 5 months and it was in front of about 15 windsurfers at North Beach during a self launch. Talk about scaring the poleboarders away from kiters!!) Oh, there were no QRs back then, so the next day I bought a snap shackle at West Marine.

[BigR]

That is one reason I always set my kites up with the lines forward now.
Since the lines are coming from in front of the kite instead of from behind,
the bow tips are not able to wrap around the bridles as the kite goes from laying on the ground to a c shape in the air

[ricki]

Hello Tom,

That was one nasty accident and witnessed by so many other riders too. Do you remember the date and approximate time of the accident? I have a favor to ask, could you rig the QR incorrectly and correctly and take photos of each setup and send them to me? I would like to post the images here.

I am very happy your lofting had a good ending. With something as large as an 18 m up in the face of such winds there is no assurance that someone even will survive. I am reminded of a fatality last year in Okinawa. A rider was out, a squall moved in from a feeder band related to a typhoon (Pacific hurricane) a distance away. He "tried" to get in to land, perhaps to have someone catch his kite instead of immediately totally depowering his kite where he was. Anyway, he never made it that far. He was lofted at high speed out of the shallows landward toward a concrete wall. He hit it and died. Prior to the lofting he was seen to be furiously pulling on his quick release that failed to open.

It was reportedly an OLD side release snapshackle incorporated into his control bar by one of the major manufacturers a few years back.

http://bosunsupplies.com/images/157-0.jpg

NO ONE SHOULD BE USING ONE OF THESE SHACKLES FOR KITEBOARDING. They fail to release if they are overloaded, if the release is pulled out of a conical area, if they are fouled ... too many reasons why they won't release. Checkout your gear and that of others you see to make sure they aren't using some of this old, deadly crap.

[tomstock]

RickI, another side effect of that shackle: The opening where the pin goes through is larger in diameter than the shackle hook itself. So, when the shack opens, the chicken loop which is pulled tight like a U shape around the shackle, will not slide off the hook. It gets caught on the wider part where the pin goes through. I would have never believed this if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

So, that shackle will still not release the kite even when opened... Scott has been using these for so long it's almost instinctive for him to punch it once to make it slip off. Keep in mind it's only his backup not his primary release. most of us don't even have a backup.

[ricki]

Hello Tom,

Yes, in the old days we went back and forth, after guys were hurt mind you, "oh you need to use a steel ring of x diameter and y thickness to improve the odds of release. Ultimately, it was a bunch of B.S.. These shackles were never designed to perform under loading such as we can have in an emergency. You are right, they will grab and hold a chickenloop all too well. Not good.

Check your QRs frequently for proper function and ideally under load under controlled circumstances.

[bayflite]

don't trust any chicken loop quick release.
my favorite QR is
LET GO OF THE BAR
GRAB CL WITH BOTH HANDS
YANK THE BEOTCH OFF LIKE YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT.
CLQR's are a product of LAWYERS! :idea:
L8r

[tomstock]

here you go RickI:

The best quick release rigged BACKWARDS (in death mode).

http://retroboxes.myvnc.com/qr3.jpg

Rigged, doesn't look all that bad.

http://retroboxes.myvnc.com/qr1.jpg

Under load, head of pin gets wedged making it impossible to pull.

http://retroboxes.myvnc.com/qr2.jpg

[ricki]

don't trust any chicken loop quick release.
my favorite QR is
LET GO OF THE BAR
GRAB CL WITH BOTH HANDS
YANK THE BEOTCH OFF LIKE YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT.
CLQR's are a product of LAWYERS! :idea:
L8r

I wish it were that easy. Sadly, we often aren't strong enough to just unhook. I remember looking down and trying to unhook my chicken loop that was twisted tight on my harness hook. I also remember about a second of looking down at some trees from about 30 ft. up. I don't remember flying about 80 ft. through the air, smashing through a bunch of seagrapes and slamming into a wooden fence around a house deck. Thanks for small favors although recoverying fully was a HUGE favor!

Catch 22 - QR's can be unreliable, then again so is NOT using a QR.

[ricki]

here you go RickI:

The best quick release rigged BACKWARDS (in death mode).

http://retroboxes.myvnc.com/qr3.jpg

Rigged, doesn't look all that bad.

http://retroboxes.myvnc.com/qr1.jpg

Under load, head of pin gets wedged making it impossible to pull.

http://retroboxes.myvnc.com/qr2.jpg


Thanks for posting this Tom!

[BigR]

the 2006 cabby QR's seem to be foolproof, You have seen those Rick?

[tomstock]

The new best quick release is foolproof also, it has the pin on the side of the chicken loop. The "grenade" swivel bar still has the death trap on it.

I agree with Rick, there is no way, zero, not possible, chance that i could have unhooked, because I tried. I remember briefly reaching down with two hands to feel that chicken loop pulled tight. It felt as solid as steel. No way I could have budged it even a centimeter or lifted my weight (times the amount of force pulling me) with two hands at my crotch.

The only reason pulling only the chicken loop normally works while standing on the beach is because the kite depowers when you pull the chicken loop. If the kite is already fully depowered (bar out) and you are still overpowered enough to be dragged and lofted, you are not going to dump any power by pulling on the chicken loop to unhook. It's already too late... add the factor of hanging from it with all of your weight and/or being dragged face first across the concrete and the chances of success are almost zero.

I would never suggest someone ride without a safety. You say the safety is a product of lawyers. Lawsuits are a product of injuries and fatalities.

Bayflite, bro, you're too cool to be taken out by bar without a QR. Get that thing fixed before mother nature proves you wrong. You can still be right with a QR, but if you're wrong without one you're in trouble.

[ricki]

I am happy to report that I am back to normal after the worst kitemare I have ever had in 5+ years of kiting. I figured out the problem with the kite, as well. My lines were not crossed in the usual manner. What happened is that the left rear bridle got tangled on a scuff guard or something else after I rigged but before I launched. My left rear line was thus effectively 3 to 4 feet shorter than the right rear line. Yeah, that might create some steering problems.

This is a potential hazard with flat kites that can be dealt with by using a little extra caution with the bridle while launching. Caution on my part was in short supply that day, and I got worked as a result. With high or gusty winds, everything changes fast when something goes wrong. The flat kites give and take away. Because they can handle high wind and gusts so well, we will likely be charging more and more high wind and gusty sessions. In doing so, however, we will increase the stakes should something go wrong.

Word on the QR. When I had my problem, I was on the 9m Waroo in 25 to 30. Megapower, especially given that the kite was looping in the middle of the window. After I pulled the chickenloop QR, the kite actually pulled on my SS bungee so hard that it yanked the ring out my Dakine seat harness. Had I not known how to use the QRs on my rig I would have been in deeper shit. It's hard to figure out your gear for the first time when you are busying tunneling into the beach like a mole rat on steroids. I had sand coming out of my ears for days.


Hello E-Bone,

There haven't been a ton of flat kite incidents that I have heard about to date. You think one of your bridle lines caught (and stayed caught?) on one of those neophrene scuff pads on the leading edge of your Waroo? Do you think configuring for a solo launch with the flat kite contributed to this? I solo launch a lot myself. The wind was about 25 to 30 mph or knots?

Did the kite launch and fire across the sky in a rapid arc? Did it then hit and relaunch again or did you hit your QR before the kite struck the ground? Congratulations on reacting quickly and well.

[ricki]

the 2006 cabby QR's seem to be foolproof, You have seen those Rick?

Hello Raul,

I probably have a couple of them but have limited time on them. Have you released them under load yet?

I made a suggestion to the industry years back about labeling QR with release tensions and reliability data (related to corrosion and weathering). Nothing like this yet, soon?

[BigR]

its impossible for it not to release under load once the rubber retainer is beyond the loop/ metal hook since there is nothing holding it together at that point.

If you ask me, I think it is almost too easy to release but it has never released accidentaly on me